White Labs dry yeast

[dmtaylor]

Chris White has been doing this for 30 years, he's in his mid-50s - there comes a time when you want to just go fishing or whatever your thing is (or health issues get in the way), and it wouldn't be the craziest deal for Lallemand to buy him out.

I know that is a big 2+2=93 extrapolation though!!!!

I'll wager that 2+2<<93, if you get my interpolation. But I have no basis for saying so.

 

[JockyBrewer]

This has nothing to do with Maltmiller.

Again. Why 'always make a starter with any liquid yeast'?

It appears you've already determined that liquid yeast of any age or origin has degraded in quality, and a starter is required to compensate for that.

I tend to make a starter with every yeast too.

I’ve caught a couple of dead packets in the past, so it saves me ruining a batch of wort and half a day spent brewing.

For the most part I’ve also had a better fermentation result after making a starter (less noticeable alcohol mainly), although I’ll admit it’s been years since I’ve not used a starter for liquid yeast.

With newer, more advanced packaging of yeast appearing I’ve wondered recently whether a starter is still required if the pack is fairly recent.

 

[clib]

It's just interesting that they're kicking off with one that could be seen to be a direct competitor to BRY-97 (and potentially Diamond and Verdant in future).

I assume the Diamond/Verdant thing is based on the demand for those two products and therefore the likelihood that White Labs will choose to market dried versions of similar things? Or have you seen/heard something that has come from the mouths of White Labs?

Why would White Labs dry a yeast that's in competition with its own? Well. It already sells it's own to MJ to reach a wider market. And if it doesn't do the white labs yeast, someone else will, in direct competition. They will make a lot of money from this, we don't know what they've agreed between themselves but Lallemand will have made it worth their whiles. I wouldn't be surprised if the dry WLP001 is more expensive than Bry-97. Like £4.99 or something. And WL get the extra bit.

And they will grab some liquid yeast users, as some people will switch from liquid to dry. I think it is already happening thanks to Verdant and other good dry strains. US05 probably caused a lot of brewers to go from liquid to dry quite a long time ago? Nottingham and Windsor before that?

Liquid yeast isn't going to disappear, but dry yeast may well continue to increase it's brewing market share in the coming years, with the products improving in quality. Lallemand is taking on a top brand. Positioning itself well. Smart move surely. Will it buy WL? Dunno. May not need to if it gets its top sellers under its wing?

 

[Sadfield]

My feeling is, if they can globally ship a portion of there top selling yeast in dry form from Europe, instead of shipping liquid yeast from the US. It'll save them money and reduce their carbon footprint. A direction most companies will be going in.

 

[JockyBrewer]

For White Labs it's a new market. Brewers already using liquid WLP001 are unlikely to switch to dry, as they could have gone to using US-05 already.

I expect Lallemand will have looked at the sales of US-05 vs BRY-97 and figure they can probably convert more US-05 users to WLP001 dry than they will lose BRY-97 users. I think they'll also take the lion's share of the profit from this as really they're the ones doing all the work here.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I assume the Diamond/Verdant thing is based on the demand for those two products and therefore the likelihood that White Labs will choose to market dried versions of similar things? Or have you seen/heard something that has come from the mouths of White Labs?

It was based on them saying on Facebook that they would be releasing two more this year. The obvious three markets would be lager, hazies and a British one (which in the US get used for more than just British styles), but the first two are probably bigger markets and there's the point they make about drying suppressing esters, so I think they go for a lager yeast and a hazy yeast. Look at what they have in their range, they've said WLP830 German Lager is their biggest-selling lager yeast (as it's their equivalent of 34/70, which is meant to be the world's most popular yeast) and WLP066 London Fog is their yeast for the hazy market.

So to be clear, they've said they're releasing two more this year, and it's my speculation that they will be WLP830 and WLP066.

I agree with most of what you wrote, I was hinting at it when I said "in practice, there won't be too much crossover, and presumably the deal works for them financially" but couldn't be bothered to spell it out. :)

 

[AJA]

London fog is more popular for hazies? I'd have guessed it was third behind London III and Conan

 

[Northern_Brewer]

London fog is more popular for hazies? I'd have guessed it was third behind London III and Conan

Remember that 1318 London Ale III is a Wyeast product, so that's not an option. White Labs are a bit vague about the origins of London Fog but seem to pitch it as an equivalent rather than a clone of 1318 - given that there's nothing particularly special about 1318, it's just another Whitbread yeast, this kind of makes sense. And Lallemand know that the London Ale III family - or more specifically Verdant - likes being dried.

Whereas Conan seems to have rather fallen off the radar - it's used in legacy beers but hardly anyone seems to be using it in new recipes, everyone seems to be using the London Ale III family. And the White Labs one isn't particularly great compared to eg the Yeast Bay one. But more importantly, Conan really hates being dried, as Lallemand found with their New England strain, the viability is terrible after drying.

I get the impression that whilst London Fog doesn't have much visibility in the UK, it's used a lot more in the US, particularly in commercial breweries. And if 1318 is what everyone wants, you want the me-too product to be as close as possible to that.

 

[Pennine]

I didn't realize New England east coast ale was the Conan strain. I was very impressed with it the few times I used it.

Would you recommend a starter with it? I didn't also didn't know the viability was poor.

 

[AJA]

I didn't realize New England east coast ale was the Conan strain. I was very impressed with it the few times I used it.

Would you recommend a starter with it? I didn't also didn't know the viability was poor.

Conan definitely needs higher pitch rates compared with equivalent yeasts. Otherwise lag time is loooong. I do think it performs well though. I didn't know it had fallen off commercially.
For completeness my favourite hazy/NEIPA yeast is wlp644 sacc trois. Massive fruit esters. I had a good harvest ongoing but that's now infected and dominated by London fog/us-05 so will need to buy more, and start again.

 

[clib]

It was based on them saying on Facebook that they would be releasing two more this year. The obvious three markets would be lager, hazies and a British one (which in the US get used for more than just British styles), but the first two are probably bigger markets and there's the point they make about drying suppressing esters, so I think they go for a lager yeast and a hazy yeast. Look at what they have in their range, they've said WLP830 German Lager is their biggest-selling lager yeast (as it's their equivalent of 34/70, which is meant to be the world's most popular yeast) and WLP066 London Fog is their yeast for the hazy market.

So to be clear, they've said they're releasing two more this year, and it's my speculation that they will be WLP830 and WLP066.

I agree with most of what you wrote, I was hinting at it when I said "in practice, there won't be too much crossover, and presumably the deal works for them financially" but couldn't be bothered to spell it out. :)

Cheers. I am sure those are the two big selling styles they will want to go for. I reckon they will have submitted a few lager strains and a few English/hazy strains to Lallemand for drying small samples and then done some test brews, and will go with what works best. Whoch msy be 830 and 066 but may not.

 

[Clarence]

Will liquid yeasts go the way of Betamax in the next 5-10 years?

Is that like Lupomax?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I didn't realize New England east coast ale was the Conan strain. I was very impressed with it the few times I used it.

Would you recommend a starter with it? I didn't also didn't know the viability was poor.

Yeah, they had real problems drying it but at the time it was the hot yeast so they felt pressure to offer it regardless. If you look at the specs, the standard Lallemand packs guarantee 5 billion cells (well, cfu) per gram (and people have cultured ~20 billion/gram), whereas New England only guarantees 1 billion per gram.

So it's up to you what you do with that information, but yes, a pack probably has a lot fewer cells than you think it does....

As an aside, don't think of Conan as a single strain, but as a family coming from lots of independent isolations from cans of Heady Topper in various states of distress - one reason why it can be so variable and unhealthy is just that the original cells people isolate were in really bad shape, at least the cells in cask dregs etc are in reasonable health.

 

[clib]

As an aside, don't think of Conan as a single strain, but as a family coming from lots of independent isolations from cans of Heady Topper in various states of distress - one reason why it can be so variable and unhealthy is just that the original cells people isolate were in really bad shape, at least the cells in cask dregs etc are in reasonable health.

I've never tried the Lalbrew New England but i should give it a whirl.

I've barely bothered with Conan at all despite meaning to. Didn't it start out as wlp002 or Fullers or something similar? A transatlantic raid on a historic English brewery or something? To reappear in very expensive cans of alcopop fruit juice on the other side of the pond? I read about it a while back. Thats our history and heritage that is. Stolen.

Lallemand will no doubt put out a dried form of the nearest thing it can get to 1318 from its own stable that dries successfully. A few possibilities I suspect but they'll want it to be one of their liquid big sellers. As long as it dries well. Cell count and decent flavour retention.

 

[JockyBrewer]

I've never tried the Lalbrew New England but i should give it a whirl.

I've barely bothered with Conan at all despite meaning to. Didn't it start out as wlp002 or Fullers or something similar? A transatlantic raid on a historic English brewery or something? To reappear in very expensive cans of alcopop fruit juice on the other side of the pond? I read about it a while back. Thats our history and heritage that is. Stolen.

Lallemand will no doubt put out a dried form of the nearest thing it can get to 1318 from its own stable that dries successfully. A few possibilities I suspect but they'll want it to be one of their liquid big sellers. As long as it dries well. Cell count and decent flavour retention.

I thought Verdant was their 1318 dry strain?

I haven’t used Conan for a few years, maybe 2015ish when I used an isolate I was given, before there were any versions on the homebrew market (at least that I could find).

It had terrific flavour for a yeast, but wasn’t great at fermenting maltotriose so tended to under attenuate.

If I make a hazy these days I use Yeast Bay’s Hazy Days II blend.

 

[clib]

I thought Verdant was their 1318 dry strain?

I haven’t used Conan for a few years, maybe 2015ish when I used an isolate I was given, before there were any versions on the homebrew market (at least that I could find).

It had terrific flavour for a yeast, but wasn’t great at fermenting maltotriose so tended to under attenuate.

If I make a hazy these days I use Yeast Bay’s Hazy Days II blend.

Verdant is Lallemand version of 1318 yes. And they may not want to produce a rival to it. But Whitelabs likely want a dry version of a yeast suited to hazy pales. 1318 is Wyeast so they'll choose from their own collection, London Fog being an obvious option. If it dries successfully.

 

[brewSJ]

The Conan strain came from the Alchemist Brewery in Vermont (it's also called the Vermont strain). The got it from a brewery somewhere in England in the late 80's, but no one seems to know which one.

Beer Maverick has the history here.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

The Conan strain came from the Alchemist Brewery in Vermont (it's also called the Vermont strain). The got it from a brewery somewhere in England in the late 80's, but no one seems to know which one.

Beer Maverick has the history here.

Beer Maverick has the history here.

Surely Bret or Bart Maverick.

 

[clib]

The Conan strain came from the Alchemist Brewery in Vermont (it's also called the Vermont strain). The got it from a brewery somewhere in England in the late 80's, but no one seems to know which one.

Beer Maverick has the history here.

The Suregork DNA testing programme found a close match between Vermont yeast and Wyeast 1968. The Wyeast version of the Fullers strain, and a Whitbread B derivative.

https://beer.suregork.com/?p=4030
Escarpment Labs Vermont Ale – The ‘classic’ NEIPA strain is closely related to Wyeast 1968 in the Whitbread B group.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Verdant is Lallemand version of 1318 yes. And they may not want to produce a rival to it. But Whitelabs likely want a dry version of a yeast suited to hazy pales. 1318 is Wyeast so they'll choose from their own collection, London Fog being an obvious option. If it dries successfully.

Or they just repack Verdant and call it 1318.