Another “No sh1t Sherlock” moment?

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From BBC Text service today:

“Water firms have been accused of exploiting their monopoly power and neglecting the environment.

The criticism comes from Environment Secretary Michael Gove, who said some firms had paid no tax and hidden their earnings offshore.

And he promised to back the regulator Ofwat in tightening up rules to protect bill-payers and the environment.”

:laugh:

This is from a senior Minister of the Party that wishes to erect a statue to the bitch that took these companies out of Public Ownership and sold them to these same people!!

What else did they expect?? :headbang::headbang:
 
As a angler, I can't help but notice that many of the rivers that were only populated with turds and condoms when I was a boy (and the water industry was nationalised) are now thriving habitats for fish and other wildlife.
 
As a angler, I can't help but notice that many of the rivers that were only populated with turds and condoms when I was a boy (and the water industry was nationalised) are now thriving habitats for fish and other wildlife.
Hi!
I'm glad to hear that the turds and condoms have gone and the rivers are clean again, but it's misleading to imply that the reason is the change from a nationalised water industry to private companies.
There has been a huge shift in people's attitudes to conservation etc. in my lifetime - perhaps today's clean rivers reflect that change more than the change from public to private ownership of water.
 
A very good point Col, look at recycling we are not forced to do it here but a recent report from the council showed that it has made a huge difference to the among of rubbish going to landfill, once over if the council had asked us to separate our rubbish we would have ignored them and moaned about how much we pay in council tax.
 
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While it is true that environmental attitudes have changed and a lot of new legislation also exists, nationalised industries of all sorts were notorious for their laissez-faire attitude to quality and safety
Nationalised water authorities were also able to look at a pollution event and claim crown immunity, leaving the victim with little redress, whereas private firms can and do get sued.

In principle, I'm in favour of state control of core utilities but not because I have a longing to return to some socialist 70's utopia (it wasn't a utopia and there was a lot wrong with nationalised industry) but because it makes very poor strategic sense to allow competitor nations control of those utilities and even less sense to create a situation where government can't control and plan core services.
 
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In fact, one of the reasons they privatised the water companies when they did was that due to the years of under investment; billions needed spending apparently, which the privatised companies then did. However, that's not to say that they have exactly covered themselves on glory since.
 
While it is true that environmental attitudes have changed and a lot of new legislation also exists, nationalised industries of all sorts were notorious for their laissez-faire attitude to quality and safety
Nationalised water authorities were also able to look at a pollution event and claim crown immunity, leaving the victim with little redress, whereas private firms can and do get sued.

In principle, I'm in favour of state control of core utilities but not because I have a longing to return to some socialist 70's utopia (it wasn't a utopia and there was a lot wrong with nationalised industry) but because it makes very poor strategic sense to allow competitor nations control of those utilities and even less sense to create a situation where government can't control and plan core services.

I agree with this, and control is a good word to use. Control can be done through a) saying who is and isn’t allowed to own something and b) regulating it. It doesn’t have to imply c) state ownership, in fact not tying up government resources in owning utilities could theoretically be a good thing.
 
In fact, one of the reasons they privatised the water companies when they did was that due to the years of under investment; billions needed spending apparently, which the privatised companies then did. ................

Oh dear!! :wave:

Here's a quote from The Guardian on the 9th January this year:

"Thames Water, under private equity ownership, has been the most egregious example, building up sky-high debts as it distributed excessive dividends to its private-equity owners via a holding company in Luxembourg, a move designed to minimise UK tax obligations. As the Cuttill report highlighted, at current rates of investment it will take Thames 357 years to renew the London’s water mains: it takes 10 years in Japan."

Thames Water "investment"?

"Since 2007, it has made capital investments at least £1 billion a year in its infrastructure – the largest such annual investment within the UK water industry. In 2015–2016, this figure was £1.2 billion. This level of investment has allowed the company to defer, but not avoid, substantial portions of its corporation tax liability in line with UK tax law."

So, the taxpayer has paid for quite a lot of it! :wave:

How about the lack of condoms mentioned earlier and the lovely clean water that the Privatised Water Companies have provided us with?

"In the period 2005–13 Thames Water was the most heavily fined water company in the UK for pollution incidents, paying £842,500 for 87 events.

In 2016, it paid the largest fine for a single pollution incident of £1 million.

In March 2017, Thames Water was fined a record £20.3 million after it pumped nearly 1.5 billion litres of untreated sewage into the River Thames."


Hmmm! I think I would prefer condoms to untreated sewage! :wave:

So, who owns the biggest of the UK's Water Companies?

If you look at the Thames Water web site it will give you a nice warm glow but a quick trawl through other opinions results in a Financial Times article from the 4th May last year that stated:

"Floated on the stock exchange in 1989, the group was acquired by German utility RWE in 2001.

Since December 2006 Thames Water has been owned by a consortium of institutional investors, including funds from China and Abu Dhabi. It was managed by Macquarie Capital Funds, dubbed by Australian newspapers the “vampire kangaroo” for its allegedly ruthless focus on profits and tax minimisation.

It sold its final stake in March to Kuwaiti and Canadian investors, whose 26 per cent stake in the company is the largest single holding. These investors are represented by a holding company called Kemble Water Holdings.

Kemble has another unit called Thames Water Utilities Cayman Finance.

There are about seven other intermediary companies between the holding company Kemble and Thames Water’s customers, with roles that are hard to determine. Thames Water says this is an “entirely appropriate structure for a business like ours and not uncommon among utilities”.

A 2015 National Audit Office report attacked several water companies for retaining profits rather than passing savings to customers. But Sir Ian is concerned that Thames Water’s removal from the stock market in 2006 means that issues such as executive pay, which has ballooned in recent years, pass unchallenged."


That's just ONE of the Water Companies! Not to worry, at least nowadays we have got rid of the "uneconomical and inefficient state monopoly" haven't we? The answer is "Yes!" and "No!"

"No!" because none of the privatised companies was uneconomical and "Yes!" they were undoubtedly being managed inefficiently. :wave:

But lets's take a look at another Financial Times article from 6th June 2017 which states:

"Consumers in England are paying £2.3bn more a year for their water and sewerage bills under the current privatised system than if the utility companies had remained in state ownership, according to research by the University of Greenwich.

The nine English regional water and sewerage companies — three of which are listed on the stock market and six of which are owned privately (*) — have invested no significant new shareholder equity but extracted nearly all of their post-tax profit as dividends, according to the Greenwich university report, which calculated the cost of privatisation to each household as over £100 a year.

At the same time, the companies have built up a growing pile of debt to finance investments over the 28 years since the industry was privatised."


So we are paying a huge price for the "efficiency" and almost none of it stays in the UK! :wave:

(*) I've highlighted this bit because I'm old enough to remember the time when the government privatised the public utility companies. It was the biggest scam of the 20th Century. The UK Government "sold" to the general public something that they already owned!

The companies were sold in a fever of high excitement because an easy profit could be made by the general public who bought the shares; the reason being that they were ALL undervalued. The general public did make an immediate profit by selling the shares that were allocated to them.

Unfortunately, after the sale of British Gas (the most profitable of the Utility Companies) the percentage offered to the general public fell and fell until very few people were actually allowed to buy the shares. This coincided with an increase in the percentage of shares being offloaded to companies in the City of London; who in turn took massive profits in either the form of dividends (because they ALL made a profit) or by selling the shares to foreign investors.

Apart from the raft of lies that were being told about the nationalised companies prior to privatisation, it was never revealed that some of these companies would (or even could) become privately owned and thereby hide away such things as their Management Salaries and Bonuses, Investment Strategies, Dividends, Profits, Taxes etc!

Things have to change! :thumb:


References:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/09/nationalise-rail-gas-water-privately-owned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Water
https://corporate.thameswater.co.uk.../Our-corporate-governance/Ownership-structure
https://www.ft.com/content/5413ebf8-24f1-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16
https://www.ft.com/content/91a2779a-4077-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2
 
Oh dear!! :wave:

Here's a quote from The Guardian on the 9th January this year:

"Thames Water, under private equity ownership, has been the most egregious example, building up sky-high debts as it distributed excessive dividends to its private-equity owners via a holding company in Luxembourg, a move designed to minimise UK tax obligations. As the Cuttill report highlighted, at current rates of investment it will take Thames 357 years to renew the London’s water mains: it takes 10 years in Japan."

Thames Water "investment"?

"Since 2007, it has made capital investments at least £1 billion a year in its infrastructure – the largest such annual investment within the UK water industry. In 2015–2016, this figure was £1.2 billion. This level of investment has allowed the company to defer, but not avoid, substantial portions of its corporation tax liability in line with UK tax law."

So, the taxpayer has paid for quite a lot of it! :wave:

How about the lack of condoms mentioned earlier and the lovely clean water that the Privatised Water Companies have provided us with?

"In the period 2005–13 Thames Water was the most heavily fined water company in the UK for pollution incidents, paying £842,500 for 87 events.

In 2016, it paid the largest fine for a single pollution incident of £1 million.

In March 2017, Thames Water was fined a record £20.3 million after it pumped nearly 1.5 billion litres of untreated sewage into the River Thames."


Hmmm! I think I would prefer condoms to untreated sewage! :wave:

So, who owns the biggest of the UK's Water Companies?

If you look at the Thames Water web site it will give you a nice warm glow but a quick trawl through other opinions results in a Financial Times article from the 4th May last year that stated:

"Floated on the stock exchange in 1989, the group was acquired by German utility RWE in 2001.

Since December 2006 Thames Water has been owned by a consortium of institutional investors, including funds from China and Abu Dhabi. It was managed by Macquarie Capital Funds, dubbed by Australian newspapers the “vampire kangaroo” for its allegedly ruthless focus on profits and tax minimisation.

It sold its final stake in March to Kuwaiti and Canadian investors, whose 26 per cent stake in the company is the largest single holding. These investors are represented by a holding company called Kemble Water Holdings.

Kemble has another unit called Thames Water Utilities Cayman Finance.

There are about seven other intermediary companies between the holding company Kemble and Thames Water’s customers, with roles that are hard to determine. Thames Water says this is an “entirely appropriate structure for a business like ours and not uncommon among utilities”.

A 2015 National Audit Office report attacked several water companies for retaining profits rather than passing savings to customers. But Sir Ian is concerned that Thames Water’s removal from the stock market in 2006 means that issues such as executive pay, which has ballooned in recent years, pass unchallenged."


That's just ONE of the Water Companies! Not to worry, at least nowadays we have got rid of the "uneconomical and inefficient state monopoly" haven't we? The answer is "Yes!" and "No!"

"No!" because none of the privatised companies was uneconomical and "Yes!" they were undoubtedly being managed inefficiently. :wave:

But lets's take a look at another Financial Times article from 6th June 2017 which states:

"Consumers in England are paying £2.3bn more a year for their water and sewerage bills under the current privatised system than if the utility companies had remained in state ownership, according to research by the University of Greenwich.

The nine English regional water and sewerage companies — three of which are listed on the stock market and six of which are owned privately (*) — have invested no significant new shareholder equity but extracted nearly all of their post-tax profit as dividends, according to the Greenwich university report, which calculated the cost of privatisation to each household as over £100 a year.

At the same time, the companies have built up a growing pile of debt to finance investments over the 28 years since the industry was privatised."


So we are paying a huge price for the "efficiency" and almost none of it stays in the UK! :wave:

(*) I've highlighted this bit because I'm old enough to remember the time when the government privatised the public utility companies. It was the biggest scam of the 20th Century. The UK Government "sold" to the general public something that they already owned!

The companies were sold in a fever of high excitement because an easy profit could be made by the general public who bought the shares; the reason being that they were ALL undervalued. The general public did make an immediate profit by selling the shares that were allocated to them.

Unfortunately, after the sale of British Gas (the most profitable of the Utility Companies) the percentage offered to the general public fell and fell until very few people were actually allowed to buy the shares. This coincided with an increase in the percentage of shares being offloaded to companies in the City of London; who in turn took massive profits in either the form of dividends (because they ALL made a profit) or by selling the shares to foreign investors.

Apart from the raft of lies that were being told about the nationalised companies prior to privatisation, it was never revealed that some of these companies would (or even could) become privately owned and thereby hide away such things as their Management Salaries and Bonuses, Investment Strategies, Dividends, Profits, Taxes etc!

Things have to change! :thumb:


References:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/09/nationalise-rail-gas-water-privately-owned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Water
https://corporate.thameswater.co.uk.../Our-corporate-governance/Ownership-structure
https://www.ft.com/content/5413ebf8-24f1-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16
https://www.ft.com/content/91a2779a-4077-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

sorry dutto, can't read all of the above, I'm too ******! - maybe tomorrow...
 
Hi @dad_of_jon
Allow me to summarize - we are getting shafted by privatisation.
That's not to say that we were not getting shafted by nationalisation, but there's no doubt that we are, right now, getting right royally shafted by privatised companies and the fat cats are getting even fatter.
 
Either way, the taxpayer needs a better deal than we're getting now....
 
“Taxpayer”

What a lovely word that is! It fair rolls off the tongue. The definition is “A person or entity that pays taxes.”

Now all we need to do is to get wealthy multinational companies to become UK “Taxpayers” and many of the hardships being suffered by the UK’s population will disappear! :thumb:
 
I hope we renationalise all the industries that were privatised. I'm desperate to buy a new car and be told that I can't chose the colour like when British Leyland was state funded. Still the colour choices were all body fluid colours so choice wasn't too attractive. My dad had an Austin 1800 in dried blood. The other options were bile, puke, wee, diarrhoea and puss.
 
Damning article indeed.
I can never understand how people blindly quote the Guardian as if it's the utter, unbiased, undiluted facts. When the paper is little more than the Daily Mail of the Left :wave:
 
To balance the argument, perhaps, here's info on Thames Water's tax: https://corporate.thameswater.co.uk...tUs/Investors/Our-Taxes-explained-2016-17.pdf

And an article on the Guardian's approach to tax: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwor...ng-hypocrisy-over-corporate-tax/#7bad694f5ffa

From the second article:

"The basic point they're making is that there are allowances in the tax code which reduce the amount of tax paid on profits. They think this is a bad thing."

The article then goes on to explain how the purchase or lease of an article can be set against company profits, thereby comparing apples with oranges.

Payments made for the purchase, lease or interest on a loan for a business asset are removed from the Debit side of a Balance Sheet before Net Profits are calculated. This is the norm for UK based companies and it is not disputed.

However, what the article fails to point out is that when the purchase, lease or loan is made at an inflated price or interest from a subsidiary company based overseas then the purchase, lease or loan isn't real; but it is still removed from the Balance Sheet before UK tax liability is calculated.

In these cases, it is a bad thing!

BTW did you know that ...

"The motto of Forbes magazine is "The Capitalist Tool". Its chairman and editor-in-chief is Steve Forbes, and its CEO is Mile Perlis. It was announced on July 18, 2014 that a majority stake in the publisher had been sold to a group of investors through their vehicle Integrated Whale Media Investments."

Forbes magazine presenting a "balanced view"? :laugh:

Damning article indeed.
I can never understand how people blindly quote the Guardian as if it's the utter, unbiased, undiluted facts. When the paper is little more than the Daily Mail of the Left :wave:

They are more famous for their spelling mistakes than their political bias; and often called "The Grauniad".

Here's a balanced article on Thames Water that may be more to your taste!

https://www.waterbriefing.org/home/...-profits-fall-to-£1273m-in-first-half-2016-17

The article states:

"The water company said the dividends, in both the current and comparative six month period, were used solely to fund internal and external interest payments by Kemble Water Finance Limited. Zero dividends were paid to external shareholders for the first six months of the year."

I refer you to my previous comment. :thumb:
 
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However, what the article fails to point out is that when the purchase, lease or loan is made at an inflated price or interest from a subsidiary company based overseas then the purchase, lease or loan isn't real; but it is still removed from the Balance Sheet before UK tax liability is calculated.

UK tax law, and in accordance with OECD principles, would require that where a UK company leased on asset from a subsidiary at an inflated price, a tax deduction would be limited to the arm's-length price that would have otherwise been charged by an unconnected person. In other words, tax law adjusts things back to what they "should" be. That's the fundamental principle of transfer pricing. :thumb:
 
UK tax law, and in accordance with OECD principles, would require that where a UK company leased on asset from a subsidiary at an inflated price, a tax deduction would be limited to the arm's-length price that would have otherwise been charged by an unconnected person. In other words, tax law adjusts things back to what they "should" be. That's the fundamental principle of transfer pricing. :thumb:

I agree entirely. However, I have highlighted the bit that applies!

I have also pointed out:

Since December 2006 Thames Water has been owned by a consortium of institutional investors, including funds from China and Abu Dhabi. It was managed by Macquarie Capital Funds, dubbed by Australian newspapers the “vampire kangaroo” for its allegedly ruthless focus on profits and tax minimisation.

It sold its final stake in March to Kuwaiti and Canadian investors, whose 26 per cent stake in the company is the largest single holding.
These investors are represented by a holding company called Kemble Water Holdings.

Kemble has another unit called Thames Water Utilities Cayman Finance.

There are about seven other intermediary companies between the holding company Kemble and Thames Water’s customers, with roles that are hard to determine. Thames Water says this is an “entirely appropriate structure for a business like ours and not uncommon among utilities”.

Why would this particular UK Utility Company have a Cayman Islands Company? Maybe it's not a UK Company. :thumb:
 
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