Another “No sh1t Sherlock” moment?

The Homebrew Forum

Help Support The Homebrew Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I agree entirely. However, I have highlighted the bit that applies!

I have also pointed out:

Since December 2006 Thames Water has been owned by a consortium of institutional investors, including funds from China and Abu Dhabi. It was managed by Macquarie Capital Funds, dubbed by Australian newspapers the “vampire kangaroo” for its allegedly ruthless focus on profits and tax minimisation.

It sold its final stake in March to Kuwaiti and Canadian investors, whose 26 per cent stake in the company is the largest single holding.
These investors are represented by a holding company called Kemble Water Holdings.

Kemble has another unit called Thames Water Utilities Cayman Finance.

There are about seven other intermediary companies between the holding company Kemble and Thames Water’s customers, with roles that are hard to determine. Thames Water says this is an “entirely appropriate structure for a business like ours and not uncommon among utilities”.

Why would this particular UK Utility Company have a Cayman Islands Company? Maybe it's not a UK Company. :thumb:

Well the comment about Macquarie is there for emotive reasons - who are those Australian newspapers, what are the allegations, why is a company focusing on profits a bad thing, what is appropriate tax minimisation etc? Perhaps the non-UK media would now say that about Thames Water purely off the back of the Guardian article? So I suggest we take that phrase out of the quote and focus on the rest.

What we appear to have is an idea that Thames Water is owned by some non-UK investors, via a structure that includes some Cayman entities. Is that bad?

The way that an owner can extract money out of a company are threefold:
1) By paying for some services that the owners are providing.
2) By paying interest on a loan.
3) As a dividend.

There is no suggestion that Thames Water is paying money to the owners for any kind of consulting services.

The payment of a dividend does not give rise to a tax deduction in the paying company, i.e. Thames Water do not get tax relief by paying dividends to the Cayman company. Further, a UK company does not pay tax on the dividends it receives. So on this dividend point, there is no tax avoidance or evasion going on.

Paying interest does give rise to a tax deduction, however the UK rules do impose some limits on this, so you can't saddle a UK company with a load of debt and strip all of the profits out that way. The rules are being further tightened to reduce the impact of this.

Payment of interest to a Cayman company would often have a 20% withholding tax at source. In practice, this can nearly always be mitigated. So in that respect, there probably is some tax advantage in having interest paid to a Cayman company, but only insofar as the investors are concerned. Thames Water would prefer not to pay interest out to start with, i.e. the tax on the extra profits would be lower than the payment of interest. Most UK businesses will have some form of borrowings in place to fund expansion, working capital etc, and get a tax deduction for this. So again, it's not a UK tax point but a matter for the investors' tax authorities as to whether they should pay tax on the interest income received.

So far, nothing dodgy from a tax perspective.

Why Cayman? We shouldn't be concerned that there is a Cayman company owning or lending money to Thames Water - as outlined above, that gives no tax advantage to Thames Water. It's a non-point.

As the Guardian have cited there, the investors come from a number of countries and are made up of investment funds (themselves, attracting investors from around the world). Those various investors will want to come together in a place that gives them the right sort of legal and regulatory protections they need, which Cayman Islands offers. What about tax? Yes, Cayman Islands has no domestic taxation so we instantly think its bad. Well actually, UK tax laws exempt most UK funds from tax anyway, so the UK is already a tax haven in that respect.

I know I'm being a bit one-sided in all of this but once you scratch the surface a bit, you'll see that a lot of what is going on here is not as bad as it is made out to be. I really can't see anything sinister going on.

EDIT: To clarify, Thames Water is a UK company. It's ownership does not change that. It is fully within the scope of UK tax, so the point I made about leasing assets is perfectly valid.
 
..............

What we appear to have is an idea that Thames Water is owned by some non-UK investors, via a structure that includes some Cayman entities. Is that bad?

................

Yes is is!

The water companies (including those that make up the conglomerate now known as Thames Water) were originally "non-profit" organisations.

In the event that they made a profit (and all of them did) then the companies either:
  1. Reduced the prices they were charging for their commodity. or
  2. Paid their profits into the UK Treasury.
My latest Bill from Anglian Water came in today, For the year 2018/2019 I will have to pay a staggering £562.61.

My Mum's pre-privatisation unmetered Water Rates Bill in 1978 was £38 so in the past 40 years the cost has increased by nearly 1,500%. Compare that to the UK's Inflation Rate:

UK Inflation Rate, 1978-2017 (£38)
According to the Office for National Statistics composite price index, the pound experienced an average inflation rate of 4.42% per year. Prices in 2017 are439.6% higher than prices in 1978.

In other words, £38 in the year 1978 is equivalent in purchasing power to £205.06 in 2017, a difference of £167.06 over 39 years.

The inflation rate in 2017 was 2.53%."


So, taking Inflation into account, my Water Bill should be +/- £205.06. As Anglian Water is mainly owned by Australian and Canadian Pension funds, the £357.55 extra that I am paying will be sent overseas rather than given to the UK Treasury.

"Is that bad?" No, it's a bloody disgrace ... :mad1:

... and it would still be a disgrace if the privatised utility companies paid every single penny of their taxes! :wave:


Reference:


http://www.in2013dollars.com/1978-GBP-in-2017?amount=25
 
The Guardian article you are quoting was taking issue with the tax affairs of Thames Water. I have explained that there is no obvious tax avoidance associated with the ownership structure. You still then say "... and it would still be a disgrace if the privatised utility companies paid every single penny of their taxes!" Can you explain what taxes should have been paid that have not been paid?

Your latest reply now takes issue with the privatisation of the utilities companies. That's a different issue entirely separate from the tax points, and one too laced with politics. Either way, that has nothing to do with where the owners are located - Cayman, Canada, Kuwait or UK.

I too wish my utility bills were lower. I have no idea what my parents paid for their water.
 
My old Mum used to say "There's none as deaf as those that don't want to hear.":wave:

It isn't me and it isn't the Guardian that's accusing the water companies of not paying their taxes. I refer you back to the OP which says:

“Water firms have been accused of exploiting their monopoly power and neglecting the environment.

The criticism comes from Environment Secretary Michael Gove, who said some firms had paid no tax and hidden their earnings offshore.

And he promised to back the regulator Ofwat in tightening up rules to protect bill-payers and the environment.”


So, it's the Secretary of State for the Environment the Right Honourable Michael Gove MP who is making these allegations; and for once I support him because I doubt if anyone in the UK is in a better position to make them!:thumb:
 
My old Mum used to say "There's none as deaf as those that don't want to hear.":wave:

Quite. Let's take a step back...

I took the time to explain the tax rules (which I do so from a position of knowledge and experience) but am effectively told I am wrong based on unsubstantiated, third-hand quotes from the BBC and Guardian (whose journalists are wholly unlikely to be qualified in tax and are in the business of creating news that appeals to their reader base).

I'm a little dubious as to what tax credentials the Environment Secretary has, noting that he too used to be a journalist. If profits were hidden offshore, how did he manage to find them? Why have these businesses not been taken to court for tax evasion? I would suggest there are plenty of people in a better position than Michael Gove to determine the tax position of these [nameless] companies yet they are not making such accusations.

You can believe what you choose, which is fine, I have no need to change your mind as the reality is we're both rather inconsequential internet dwellers :(. I recognise that I am more towards the blue corner than you when it comes to capital markets (I'm surprisingly liberal-socialist in may other aspects, not true-blue), and so we do have a different viewpoint as to what we "want" the answer to be here, but I would like to think I have tried to explain things accurately and objectively in terms of how the tax system works.

:thumb:
 
We'll have to agree to differ on this one.

I'm old enough to know that the privatised Utility Companies are ripping us off and I'm absolutely certain that if they can dodge paying their taxes (and all the reports seem to say that they can) then they definitely will. :thumb:
 
In principle, I'm in favour of state control of core utilities but not because I have a longing to return to some socialist 70's utopia (it wasn't a utopia and there was a lot wrong with nationalised industry) but because it makes very poor strategic sense to allow competitor nations control of those utilities and even less sense to create a situation where government can't control and plan core services.
I am also a believer that it doesn't make sense to outsource core utilities to foreign investors. The Russians control our gas, the French our electricity and I can't access my phone or Internet without going through the Phillipino call centre. If we were to go to war again, any of these countries could turn off the taps and then where would we be?
 
Back
Top