Boiling Extract for 90 Mins?

[Bertie Doe]

Hi I'm a newbie just returning to the fold after a short lay-off. In the past I've exclusively used kits. Before attempting the Full Mash route, I'd like to compromise and start with a dried malt extract, with grains and hops. If I'm happy with the result, I need go no further with equipment purchase.
On this occasion, my recipe guide is Graham Wheeler's BYO British Real Ale. I've picked 'Theakston Best Bitter' for 19 litres, OG1038 and target (ABV) 3.8%. The starter is bubbling away nicely, I've got all the ingredients, so there's no turning back:-
1960g dried malt extract, 175g crystal malt, 33g in total of challenger and fuggle hops. Water, up to 18 litres.
In his preamble Malt Extract Brewing - no mash required. He states that a well mashed beer will always have the edge over an extract, but there may be time and equipment issues.
With regard to malt extract he states-
"All the ingredients are simply boiled vigorously for an hour or more and then strained into the fermentation bin".
Ok I can be persuaded that boiling grains for 90 mins will help purge out the sugars, but does the extract need boiling for this length of time? After all, a kit is simply a tin of extract and a sachet of yeast - I don't recall the instructions stating that the contents should be boiled.
I'll be using dried rather than syrup, I guess a short boil would kill any nasties, but my main concern is equipment. My max stockpot is 10 litres and I'm trying to avoid doing 2 batches of 90 minute boils. Any help appreciated.

 

[graysalchemy]

Boiling vigorously helps form the hot break which gets rid of all the proteins which would otherwise cloud the beer. Boiling also fixes the the alpha acid in the bittering hops giving you the bitterness. In all grain brewing the grains are not boiled but mashed and the extracted wort is boiled so really the extract method is basically getting you to that point.

With regards to time most of us here will boil for 90 mins but some only 60. If you boil for less time you generally need more hops in order to extract and fix the required bitterness. When I started I did extract brewing and boiled for 90 mins.

Hope that helps

 

[Runwell-Steve]

Malt Extract is not the same as you get in a Beer Kit.

The concentrate you get in a beer kit has already been boiled for the 90 minutes, it is then condensed into the can.

Malt Extract has not undergone the boiling process, it is purely the extract from the grains, condensed and put into a tin, or dried.

In All Grain brewing we do not bil the grains to extract the sugars, we steep them at 66 centigrade for 90 mins to produce and extract the sugars.

The liquid we run off from the Mash Tun into the boiler is effectively the same as what you get after diluting your Malt Extract, it all needs to be boiled for a further 60 or 90 mins, seems to be personal preference, I boil for 60 mins.

If you only have a 10 Litre pan you can boil all the Malt Extract in the 10 Litre pan for 90 minutes and add your hops to that. Once finished that goes into the fermenter and you can top it up with cold water to the required level just as you would with a kit.

 

[Aleman]

With regard to malt extract he states-
"All the ingredients are simply boiled vigorously for an hour or more and then strained into the fermentation bin".

The book is out of date, and this has been revised.

Ok I can be persuaded that boiling grains for 90 mins will help purge out the sugars.

It will also extract tannins which will leave a nasty dry astringent taste to the beer. . . .I'm sure somewhere else in the book he also sates that at no time should you boil grain. . . .at least he does in my second edition, the third edition may be different.

does the extract need boiling for this length of time? After all, a kit is simply a tin of extract and a sachet of yeast - I don't recall the instructions stating that the contents should be boiled..

That depends, If the extract was made properly it would have already had a 90 minute boil, and you could simply make it up to the desired volume with water, after all that is what the kits tell you to do. . . . .Unfortunately although extract is boiled to concentrate it (dried is slightly different), it is done so under a very low pressure, which means that the boiling point is actually at below 65C. The wort needs to be boiled at 100C for an extended period in order to secure the hot break. Boiling at 60C won't achieve that . . .and the result is a wort that has very poor long tern stability (it is likely to form a haze over time . . .or even be permanently hazy)

I'll be using dried rather than syrup, I guess a short boil would kill any nasties, but my main concern is equipment. My max stockpot is 10 litres and I'm trying to avoid doing 2 batches of 90 minute boils. Any help appreciated.

Well actually you really will need a bigger boiler than that, as boiling a concentrated wort and diluting it will not give the same result as boiling the full volume . . .and you will need a lot more water than 18 litres as some will be driven off through the boil anyway . . .consider loosing at least 3 litres, and even if you could boil 9L of wort and hops in a 10L stockpot without making an almighty mess, you'll have about 6L at the end of the boil.

Yes the boil needs to be about 90 minutes not to 'Kill any nasties' but to extract the bitterness from the hops and secure the hot break . . .you could probably reduce that down to 60 minutes.

Personally I would invest in a boiler of at least 30L (preferably 35 - You are going all grain right ) and then do the following

1. Put 23L of water into the boiler and bring it up to 65C[/*:m:1netqxeb]
2. Add the grains in a large muslin bag and allow them to steep in the hot water for 30 minutes[/*:m:1netqxeb]
3. in the meantime get 2L of cold water, and add the malt extract to it gradually, stirring to disperse it (trust me it's easier with cold water)[/*:m:1netqxeb]
4. Once the extract has dissolved add it to the boiler, and switch on the heat[/*:m:1netqxeb]
5. Once the temperature has reached 72C remove the grain tea bag[/*:m:1netqxeb]
6. when the wort reaches boiling allow it to boil until the foam dies down then add the hops[/*:m:1netqxeb]
7. Boil for at least 60 minutes[/*:m:1netqxeb]
8. Cool the wort, as quickly as possible[/*:m:1netqxeb]
9. Drain/rack the clear wort from the hops and break materials[/*:m:1netqxeb]
10. Pitch yeast and ferment at around 18-20C[/*:m:1netqxeb]

 

[Aleman]

Malt Extract is not the same as you get in a Beer Kit.

Actually it is pretty much

The concentrate you get in a beer kit has already been boiled for the 90 minutes, it is then condensed into the can.

You would think the manufacturers of beer kits would do that wouldn't you, they don't, it just gets vacuum condensed at much lower temperature than is really required. Hop bitterness is supplied by isomerised hop extract

Malt Extract has not undergone the boiling process, it is purely the extract from the grains, condensed and put into a tin, or dried.

Correct exactly the same as beer kits. . .Dried extract is even weirder. in that it is run off from the mash, and then injected as a fine mist into the top of a tower. Hot dry air is blown in at the bottom which evaporates the water, and the dried malt extract collects at the bottom of the tower, in a very fine dust So Spray Malt gets even less of a boil

If you only have a 10 Litre pan you can boil all the Malt Extract in the 10 Litre pan for 90 minutes and add your hops to that. Once finished that goes into the fermenter and you can top it up with cold water to the required level just as you would with a kit.

It could be done,

• I wouldn't go for a full 90 minutes(60 would be sufficient), [/*:m:2bhujyez]
• you would have to be careful about boil overs . . . they will happen, [/*:m:2bhujyez]
• you will have to top up with water throughout the boil to make up for evaporation, [/*:m:2bhujyez]
• You won't get as much bitterness from the hops, so consider adding 50% more than stated in the recipe.[/*:m:2bhujyez]
• You will loose a lot of wort to the hops so consider sparging with a litre or so of boiling water once they have drained.[/*:m:2bhujyez]

 

[Bertie Doe]

Thanks, what a great forum. I decided to play safe and boiled the wort for 60 minutes. Before it boiled, I removed the nylon bag containing the grain.
Unfortunately it didn't go quite according to plan, the SSG was 20 points shorter than the recipe demanded. It was 1038 instead of 1058, so I added the appropriate cane sugar.
During the post mortem, :wha: I realised that 1038 was correct for Theakston Best and I was taking 1058 from Theakston Old peculiar.
If it reaches the final gravity of 1015, I'll end up with an ABV 5.7% rather than the intended 3.8%.
This is the last hybrid, my next batches will be the 'full mash' route. Fingers crossed, there's no more mishaps. Was it Marie Antoinette who said "Homebrewing is a piece of .... cake"?