Duty increase.

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YeastFace said:
Whose terrible idea was it to invite Sunak to pour pints at GBBF today?
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I witnessed it first hand. Tears of laughter mate. If you didn't laugh you'd cry at the ridiculousness.
What wasn't so clear on the news was the audience singing 'what-a-loada rubbish'. Like a pantomine.
Caught it briefly on video too.
 
YeastFace said:
Also, forgot the Duty draught relief will no longer apply to take out (e.g. growler fills).

As the brewer becomes liable for duty on point of production, not sale, surely they won't offer any containers which they haven't applied draught relief to? If that's the case then you assume growler fills will disappear (assuming no reseller wants to get in trouble with HMRC).

My local bar relies on these to exist so I'm quite worried for their future.
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Yep. I can supply them with containers (over 20L) for draught use, and containers that are intended to fill takeout containers. But they cant have one keg for both and stay within the duty rules. Or they just pay buy the non-draught-intended container and serve all from that (and lose margin/put prices up). Or the pub can register with HMRC, buy for draught, and send the additional duty off each month for the pints they put in takeouts. Admin nightmare.
 
Desmnd said:
So under the old system a pint at 5% =
0.568 (ltr) *.05 = 0.0284(ltr pure in pint)
times 19p (per liter) = Duty on a pint 0.54p = half a penny.
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So for a 4.2% beer, the old system for a small brewery producing under 5000HL of beer was £9.54 per hl%.
So simply £9.54 x abv per 100L. So a cask of my 4.2% was approx 23p per pint in duty.
For a bigger brewery it was double that. Small Brewery Relief was 50% of the standard rate. Simples.

In the new system the rate you pay is discounted based on the amount of alcohol produced last year (not just beer, any other alcohol made is factored in). The less you made, the higher the discount.
Every brewery has its own duty rate discount, and then there's the draught relief and different rules for sub 3.5% and 8.5%+ beer.
Not simples.
 
chopps said:
I witnessed it first hand. Tears of laughter mate. If you didn't laugh you'd cry at the ridiculousness.
What wasn't so clear on the news was the audience singing 'what-a-loada rubbish'. Like a pantomine.
Caught it briefly on video too.
Click to expand...
I usually get to go on Trade Day, but had to change my planned annual leave for yesterday to next week because of childcare issues. Sad I missed it.
 
So now I need to calculate how much alcohol I have produced in the previous year to prove I am eligible for SPR. Not my production as was previously used but cumulative total of the volume of alcohol in each gyle. Thankfully I only do eight main recipes,,,, Still a total pain.

So glad I only produce my brews in 23l or 30l kegs,,,, but If I did bottles what a *hitshow for many small bottlers.

However I am also a registered small cider producer and under 70hl am exempt from duty.
Is this included in the total of alcohol I produce?:mad:

The online EX46 return has remained for me to do duty for July I think everything will be paid in advance to give me some breathing space.

This is the busiest time of the year for most restaurants and brewers. Great timing to introduce changes now eh? ,,,,,
 
Druncan said:
So now I need to calculate how much alcohol I have produced in the previous year to prove I am eligible for SPR. Not my production as was previously used but cumulative total of the volume of alcohol in each gyle. Thankfully I only do eight main recipes,,,, Still a total pain.

So glad I only produce my brews in 23l or 30l kegs,,,, but If I did bottles what a *hitshow for many small bottlers.

However I am also a registered small cider producer and under 70hl am exempt from duty.
Is this included in the total of alcohol I produce?:mad:

The online EX46 return has remained for me to do duty for July I think everything will be paid in advance to give me some breathing space.

This is the busiest time of the year for most restaurants and brewers. Great timing to introduce changes now eh? ,,,,,
Click to expand...
My hats off to those of you who have made the jump to brewing commercially. athumb..

After 30+ years of dealing with lots of paperwork and regulations (GDPR was fun :laugh8: ) I decided not to step into another sea of it.
 
Druncan said:
So now I need to calculate how much alcohol I have produced in the previous year to prove I am eligible for SPR. Not my production as was previously used but cumulative total of the volume of alcohol in each gyle. Thankfully I only do eight main recipes,,,, Still a total pain.

So glad I only produce my brews in 23l or 30l kegs,,,, but If I did bottles what a *hitshow for many small bottlers.

However I am also a registered small cider producer and under 70hl am exempt from duty.
Is this included in the total of alcohol I produce?:mad:

The online EX46 return has remained for me to do duty for July I think everything will be paid in advance to give me some breathing space.

This is the busiest time of the year for most restaurants and brewers. Great timing to introduce changes now eh? ,,,,,
Click to expand...
From what I gather it sounds much more complicated than it is.
First of all I filled in the Small Producers Relief? So I have my discount, (which is much better than the 50% previously for everyone from 0-500000 pints/year being closer to 0 than half million)
I used to have to fill in(i) total amount of beer, then (ii) the amount of beer x %ABV
now all they're asking for is the amount of alcohol which is the amount of alcohol made which is 1/100 of the amount that I used to fill in. On first looking at it I thought ffs but I think what I have is right (fingers crossed)

And duty not sorted now is subject to new ules from what I gather.
 
DocAnna said:
But taking port and fortified wines more…. really 🧐🙄..they are not drunk in the same quantities so that just doesn’t make sense.
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Perhaps in some circles they are, basic port, sherry, thunderbird have always offered a good bang for your buck(-fast).
 
chopps said:
So for a 4.2% beer, the old system for a small brewery producing under 5000HL of beer was £9.54 per hl%.
So simply £9.54 x abv per 100L. So a cask of my 4.2% was approx 23p per pint in duty.
For a bigger brewery it was double that. Small Brewery Relief was 50% of the standard rate. Simples.

In the new system the rate you pay is discounted based on the amount of alcohol produced last year (not just beer, any other alcohol made is factored in). The less you made, the higher the discount.
Every brewery has its own duty rate discount, and then there's the draught relief and different rules for sub 3.5% and 8.5%+ beer.
Not simples.
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly it was 30000 hectalitres for 50% then a sliding scale to 60000 hL. The main problem seems to be with the draught relief and takeouts from pubs, which I think will be resolved, there was a different rate for 7.5%+ and no duty for sub 1.2%.
As regards each brewery having its own duty discount that is to stop the previous system which encouraged breweries to stay under 30000 hectalitre.
The fact that the duty has risen is another thing, though isn't VAT higher amount of a pint?
 
lancon said:
From what I gather it sounds much more complicated than it is.
First of all I filled in the Small Producers Relief? So I have my discount, (which is much better than the 50% previously for everyone from 0-500000 pints/year being closer to 0 than half million)
I used to have to fill in(i) total amount of beer, then (ii) the amount of beer x %ABV
now all they're asking for is the amount of alcohol which is the amount of alcohol made which is 1/100 of the amount that I used to fill in. On first looking at it I thought ffs but I think what I have is right (fingers crossed)

And duty not sorted now is subject to new ules from what I gather.
Click to expand...
Aye @lancon;

From SIBA (so glad i'm a member!!);
They have confirmed that any beer that you have produced before 1 August 2023 that has not passed the duty point ahead of the 1 August (such as beer in duty suspense) will now be eligible for the Small Producer Relief (SPR) under the new system. This means the beer will be subject to the new duty rates introduced on 1 August. This is a change from the information that HMRC provided last week and is being introduced to avoid having to operate a complicated dual system.

This means that anything that has passed the duty point before 1 August will pay the old SBR rate. For example, beer that has been packaged into casks and bottles and you have paid the duty by 31 July 2023. Anything that passes the duty point on or after 1 August will pay the new SPR and draught duty relief if applicable. This includes beer you have in fermenters or in duty suspense.
 
lancon said:
If I remember correctly it was 30000 hectalitres for 50% then a sliding scale to 60000 hL. The main problem seems to be with the draught relief and takeouts from pubs, which I think will be resolved, there was a different rate for 7.5%+ and no duty for sub 1.2%.
As regards each brewery having its own duty discount that is to stop the previous system which encouraged breweries to stay under 30000 hectalitre.
The fact that the duty has risen is another thing, though isn't VAT higher amount of a pint?
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Yes, it was a sliding scale. Under 5000HL was 50% off, then tapered between 5000HL and 60000HL
The low abv threshold raised to 3.5 and the high abv limit to 8.5. So the 'normal' range is 3.5 to 8.4 now.
Probably the wrong word but you know what I mean.
 
Druncan said:
Aye @lancon;

From SIBA (so glad i'm a member!!);
They have confirmed that any beer that you have produced before 1 August 2023 that has not passed the duty point ahead of the 1 August (such as beer in duty suspense) will now be eligible for the Small Producer Relief (SPR) under the new system. This means the beer will be subject to the new duty rates introduced on 1 August. This is a change from the information that HMRC provided last week and is being introduced to avoid having to operate a complicated dual system.

This means that anything that has passed the duty point before 1 August will pay the old SBR rate. For example, beer that has been packaged into casks and bottles and you have paid the duty by 31 July 2023. Anything that passes the duty point on or after 1 August will pay the new SPR and draught duty relief if applicable. This includes beer you have in fermenters or in duty suspense.
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I'm all declared on 31/7. All packaged beer is on the July return. I have 330L of Moston bitter in the tank that's not ready to rack for a week so that will be at the new rate. I could have probably played the system and saved a few quid but honestly I'l happy to make my life simpler by getting it all done and dusted. I can start August with a clean slate.
 
chopps said:
I'm all declared on 31/7. All packaged beer is on the July return. I have 330L of Moston bitter in the tank that's not ready to rack for a week so that will be at the new rate. I could have probably played the system and saved a few quid but honestly I'l happy to make my life simpler by getting it all done and dusted. I can start August with a clean slate.
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Well it seems that no need to rush, I just filled in ex46 for July and old rate still, or have I done something wrong?
(I filled in now as it seems my SPR is more favourable than the old 50%)
 
lancon said:
Well it seems that no need to rush, I just filled in ex46 for July and old rate still, or have I done something wrong?
(I filled in now as it seems my SPR is more favourable than the old 50
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Yeah, I guess that's right. Last month was last month, so they have to apply the old rates.
August's return will change though. My SPR is better than the old system too, so at least I can offset some of the ridiculous electricity costs now.
 
chopps said:
£1.91 is NIIIICE!
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Thought I was doing well on £2.10!!
chopps said:
Yeah, I guess that's right. Last month was last month, so they have to apply the old rates.
August's return will change though. My SPR is better than the old system too, so at least I can offset some of the ridiculous electricity costs now.
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I use my night rate for most, do an overnight mash, (heating the water on day rate just for mash, not sparge costs the same as sparge and boil), just means I have to get up at 3-4a.m.
 

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