Beer Judging

In the BJCP the styles are grouped together in categories. I'm sure the same will apply to this comp only your beer will be judged for what it is when scoring. There will no doubt be some styles with no entries (light american lager anyone...) and some with loads of entries. It's easy to group entries together according to how many enter. I'd expect some of the common styles to stand alone (Bitters) and some to be grouped (Wheat beers/sour beers)

Even BJCP categories are limited...at 2010 I entered a cherry choc porter - where would I enter that?

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Speciality class is a catch all for anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, that's where the cherry choc porter would go. Nice thing about this class is you get to write a description of what you were trying to achieve with that particular brew.
If only the NGBWJ could come up with something as inclusive yet British in perspective. :hmm:

lancsSteve said:

As to underfilled... Bosium got his to the brim (how?) But all commercial beers would have been negatively marked for that!

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I filled my bottles from the keg with a Blichmann beer gun. I topped them right up to the brim and capped on foam to make sure I got as much air out of the bottle as possible.

Filling the bottles to the brim also means you lose less carbonation as there's no headspace to pressurise, and I like that my beer doesn't get as shocked / foamed up during transit.

I don't know if my beers were marked down for this as I don't have my scoresheets yet, but I honestly don't see what the fill level in your bottle has to do with the scoring at all..

Overfilling is also frowned upon . . . with the reduced head space the potential for a bottle bomb is even higher . . . with naturally carbonated beers of course

Ive never been happy with the concept of "judging" a beer. Who`s to say that one beer is better than another. Everyone has a different idea of what a beer should be, and brewing it to please someone else is against all I believe in homebrewing.
My beer, is my beer. I really appreciate your feedback/critique, but why would I want to put it up in a competition against your beer.

Beer Judges.......If these people think that they can "judge" a beer, they are greatly mistaken. They might be able to tell you what ingerients are in the beer, they might be even able to tell you how you could improve it, but to have the ability to say one beer is better than another is totally wrong.

Ill give you a example.
Brewer No1....Limited budget....Woodfordes Wherry Kit...Bog Standard and it comes out fine, hes happy with it.
Brewer No2...No expence spared. A/G mini micro brewery set up, brews a beer and he is happy with it.
Who is to say that one beer is better than the other.

With beer, quality cannot be defined by end product. As homebrewers we brew beer for the enjoyment of the whole process, not the end result.

Happy Brewing.

TheMumbler said:

I think Dunfie mentioned trying a sensory training kit or something similar with the SCBA, no idea how it went though.

Edit - it is a different kit link is in Dunfie's post here

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I have answered the other post too but to keep it all together under this thread I have copied to here:

I've just looked at the web site and they have changed it all. They used to publish all the information on the faults included but obviously felt that they were giving too much away.

Its been over a year since we bought ours. I got the Scottish Craft Brewers to agree to the £140 that covered the published price plus VAT and P&P. For your money you get three capsules of each of the eight faults so you can run the session up to three times (we have only done it twice so far). The following Faults are included:

Metal Contamination
Spoilage by Acetic Acid Bacteria
Bacterial Growth in the Mash
Spoilage by Wild Yeast
Bacterial Growth in Fermentation
Insufficient Boiling of Wort
Poor yeast health
Use of old or degraded hops

The idea is that you take a bland beer (we have used Carling and Tennents) and you simply pop the contents of each capsule into each glass/jug. You can then take a small amount and get the idea of what the fault is all about. The instructions card also gives some guidance on whether the batch is salvagable (ie blend with a good batch).

We have had good fun with it but I think it falls short of what the homebrewer really needs to know and also from a judging perspective it isn't the complete package either as some of these faults are never going to make it through to a competition (at least I would hope not).

Faults like Acetic Acid Bacteria and Bacterial Growth in Fermentaton were fairly obvious and most heads were thrown back when they sniffed it. The Metal Contamination is not something I have ever tasted from homebrew and unless you have rusty fermenters I doubt it would be a problem. Insufficient boiling of wort was simply DMS but as we were using Tennents Lager which was not chilled it was difficult to tell the difference. Old hops was just cheesy. The spoilage by wild yeast was Brettanomyces, however we all agreed that by injecting Brett into Tennents lager we actuallt had a much improved drink :).

Where it lacks is around some of the more common problems that are exerienced along the way. Not making expected FG, issues with too much diacetyl or acetaldehyde, problems from fermenting at various temperatures (basically the stuff that trips up the novice brewer).

So to sum up I think if you are able to use your local brewing groups funds to share the cost of the kit then it is useful. Its not an insignificant investment so it is good to get as many as possible in a room and have a bit of fun going through each fault and discuss them. It won't cover everything and that is where you need experienced brewers with a good nose tasting your beer and giving feedback.

Very interesting and a good read. I love the "bland beer" bit. But I do have a few questions

Metal Contamination...Unless they mean rust. Hard to detect
Acetic acid bacteria... Im undecided as of yet
Bacterial Growth In Mash...Surley that should read "bacterial growth in malt"
Spoilage by Wild Yeast... Though not unfeesable,very unlikely
Bacterial Growth in Fermentation...The major downfall in in any brew
In sufficient boiling Of Wort.. Un less referring to No 3...totally undetectable
Poor Yeast Health. I agree but hard to detect
Old Hops ...Totally agree. Even the average HBer will know if the brew is not up to his/hers required levels

Thanks Dunfie

johnnyboy1965 said:

Very interesting and a good read. I love the "bland beer" bit. But I do have a few questions

Metal Contamination...Unless they mean rust. Hard to detect
Acetic acid bacteria... Im undecided as of yet
Bacterial Growth In Mash...Surley that should read "bacterial growth in malt"
Spoilage by Wild Yeast... Though not unfeesable,very unlikely
Bacterial Growth in Fermentation...The major downfall in in any brew
In sufficient boiling Of Wort.. Un less referring to No 3...totally undetectable
Poor Yeast Health. I agree but hard to detect
Old Hops ...Totally agree. Even the average HBer will know if the brew is not up to his/hers required levels

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This is exactly the kind of discussion that the kit kicked off - very entertaining (it was also the best use for 8 cans of Tennents lager - imo). It was also interesting as some people really cannot taste the faults as well as others.

Metal Contamination...Unless they mean rust. Hard to detect
This took me back to drinking cans of McEwans Export many years ago. I always thought it was a flavour in the beer but it turns out that the cans were faulty.

Acetic acid bacteria... Im undecided as of yet
I have recently suffered this and it was pretty close. Normally either Acetobactor or Gluconobactor species of bacteria.

Bacterial Growth In Mash...Surley that should read "bacterial growth in malt"
No, in the mash. This was the "baby vomit" (butyris acid). I got the dry boak when I smelled this.

Spoilage by Wild Yeast... Though not unfeesable,very unlikely
I have tasted a few beers that have go the brett taste about it. FG going low and also foaming carbonation are also tell tale signs that something else has got in. Not always a bad thing.

Bacterial Growth in Fermentation...The major downfall in in any brew
The kit was leaning towards both Indole (fecal) and also DMS

In sufficient boiling Of Wort.. Un less referring to No 3...totally undetectable
This was the DMS but as we were using Tennent lager we didn't really detect too much over and above the normal levels. Other people detected Isobutyraldehyde (grainy nuttiness) and also Dimethylu trisulfide (onions)

Poor Yeast Health. I agree but hard to detect
There was an increase in sulphur compounds in the aroma that they claimed were not eliminated as much as a healthy yeast would

Old Hops ...Totally agree. Even the average HBer will know if the brew is not up to his/hers required levels
Yes, use good quality, well packaged hops and freeze the ones you don't use.

This is what forums are all about. Please dont get me wrong but I have a few problems/questions with this reply.
Are you saying that you can define the different bacterial infestations, just by taste ?

Sulpher compound. Interesting..compared to what ? Have you made the same brew using old yeast and fresh yeast and tasted them side by side.
Freezing hops....Your source?

I would also be interested in developing my palet :pray:

cnelsonplumber said:

I would also be interested in developing my palet :pray:

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Congraulations in wanting to devleope your palate. Its taken me 30 years and I am still no where near it. All I can suggest is you find a base recipe and then adjust your hop profile to suit your taste. There are **** load of hops out there to experiment with. Develope your beers to your tasting

johnnyboy1965 said:

This is what forums are all about. Please dont get me wrong but I have a few problems/questions with this reply.
Are you saying that you can define the different bacterial infestations, just by taste ?

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Personally - no. However I am fairly confident that I can detect when my beer has a acetic acid bacterial infection by giving it a sniff.

johnnyboy1965 said:

Sulpher compound. Interesting..compared to what ? Have you made the same brew using old yeast and fresh yeast and tasted them side by side.?

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Again, this was what the kit was trying to explain and this was the aroma it gave up. So, if you do find that you have a beer with more sulphur than expected they are suggesting you consider the yeast as a possible source.

johnnyboy1965 said:

Freezing hops....Your source?

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This is a personal one, once I have opened hops that have been vacuum packed I mark up the quantity left and freeze as soon as possible. I have found that this is the best way to preserve them for future brews.

Dunfie, where did you manage to get the kit from?

jamesb said:

Dunfie, where did you manage to get the kit from?

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I got it direct from FlavorActiv.

I seriously think you are talking bull. I think that you have spent £140.00 on a product that only you can justify,
I will ask the question again....Can you analize the bacteria content by taste alone?
I will sign off with my name......Phd Chem.etc

Are you saying that you can define the different bacterial infestations, just by taste ?

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Someone with a highly trained palate and nose will be able to detect and define the majority of bacterial infections, based on smell, before actually tasting the beer.

However no matter what experience and training you have, some people detect different things to others, we all sense faults with differing degrees of sensitivity.

Without training or exposure to beer faults you may not even know the beer your drinking is faulty :ugeek:

In ref to your original analogy between beer 1 woodfordes kit and beer 2 ag kit.

If the AG had been mashed at a very high temp and fermented very warm it would be a **** beer.
If the AG has been mashed at a decent temp 66-67 with fresh ingredients following a well proven recipe and fermented at a constant well controlled 19-21 deg C with a decent healthy yeast, the beer will be far superior to a woodfordes wherry, Trust me. :ugeek:

I have done both & my tag line state my stance on the difference between the two AG or Kits.

Saying that Cans have their place, if you want a quick brew in the minimum time then go for a Can.

However if your making beer from can kits This bit will be contraversial "YOU ARE NOT A BREWER"!!!!!

Your just mixing someone else's Wort That They Brewed with water and chucking some yeast in.

If thats your bag good on you Enjoy :thumb:

UP (BIG PUD)

The first line of your post is just (nonsense*), and i challenge you to prove me wrong










* - post edited by site crew

johnnyboy1965 said:

I seriously think you are talking b****t. I think that you have spent £140.00 on a product that only you can justify,
I will ask the question again....Can you analize the bacteria content by taste alone?
I will sign off with my name......Phd Chem.etc

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I'm sorry but letters after your name mean nothing other than you went to University It doesn't make you an expert on everything else.

I work with plenty of people that have more letters after their name than your average can of alphabet soup, and quite a lot of them know sod all about the subject they have expertise in in real terms. Yes they are great at maths, are wizards with excel spreadsheets etc....... but when it comes to making important decisions, real Practical experience etc etc etc they fall down massively.

Beer making and Fermentation is a black art, a Craft as well as a Science, and there are many aspects of it that are still not understood, by the boffins "such as yourself".

I suggest before you dismiss an expert beer judges olfactory senses and finely tuned palate, that you go back to school on the subject.

I am not a beer judge or a beer expert by the way, however I can assure you my palate has developed greatly since I have started making All grain beer.

My Knowledge of beer and faults has also greatly benefited from attending regular meetings with Craft brewers, and tasting plenty of different beers in their presence.

A number of the Craft Brewing Group I belong to are National Beer Judges and I can assure you they know their stuff, I have seen them pick up many faults by nose alone, following their appraisal I have smelt and tasted the beers they have said are faulty, and the beers have tasted of what they said they would based on their perception of the fault based on smell alone.

To Sum UP

1) The first Line of my earlier post is not total **********

2)I suggest you research the subject a little more before taking such a negative stance young man!

Please refrain from using gutter language on this forum in serious discussions, your responses do not reflect your claimed acedemia.


Here endeth the First lesson!

UP

To misquote dunfie:

Dunfie said:

The following are included:


Roddenbachage by Acetic Acid Bacteria
Funky Bacterial Growth in the Mash
Lambic Genius by using Wild Yeast
Bacterial Growth in Fermentation
Minimal simmering of Wort
Your mate dad's brother's old yeast from his loft
Deliberate use of old or degraded hops

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So it's a"Belgian taste experience" in a kit then eh? :lol:

Saying you like something isn't the same as saying it's good, and vice-versa. If the only criteria was "liking it" most homebrew would be terrible. I like my beers, some I think are great, others good, some have been poor in my view but others have loved them. I've learned a LOT by having them judged (formal feedback) and also from informal feedback to learn where desired tastes, clashing flavours and off-flavours and smells may have come from and ways to improve and develop. You can judge a beer against many criteria (style or intention being the obvious ones) and to consider if it's elements work together harmoniously or have interesting or surprising oppositions and juxtapositions (like balancing sweet with sour instead of bitter as lambics and oud bruins do for example). Whether you LIKE it is a different matter and that too will change over time as one's palate matures, improves and experiences different tastes. However as it looks a little like someone may just be playing "Troll: The provoking" with little of merit or substance tapart from gutter language and provocation to add to this discussion I'll move on:

- I've just received Randy Mosher's "Tasting Beer" which looks brilliant and the incredibly impressive "The brewmasters table" by Garrett Oliver from Amazon - both look excellent. The latter is a beautiful, big cookbook style book on matching beers and foods with a BIG section on Lambics and Belgian beers and food matching that is really inspirational (you'd LOVE it I recon UP - more like a cookbook than a beer book, no recipes just food matching suggestions categorised by BJCP styles).