Is yeast the new hops?

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The Idiot

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I come from an age when homebrew was the staple reserve of Boots, John Bull kits and beer with a nasty twang, no matter how hard you tried. As more quality ingredients became easily available, the average homebrewer could make better beer, but there was still a lot of style limitations. Hops, for example, generally were limited to EKG and Fuggles. As the years went past, the range evolved, until the interweb arrived.

I make no secret of the fact that I love US and New World hops. That mix of bitter, citrus and earthiness makes me smile. I over-indulge in hops at times. Whether using a single hop variety or combinations, different timings, dry hopping, hop bursting, it's all good.

Here's the thing. As a lover of hoppy beers, they're ultimately very samey. A nice mix of Nelson Sauvin and Cascade, with a late addition of Moteuka tastes great. Simco and Amarillo likewise. Citra and anything also works well. However, while the beers taste great, varying the hops and grain bill slightly still delivers beers that whilst very drinkable are relatively similar.

I don't know whether I've done hops to death, or whether my butterfly mind just wants to move on, but I increasingly find even good IPAs to be just that: good. I drink them (and brew them) because they're nice. And because they're beer.

But they lack something: complexity. They're not stimulating or exciting. They inevitably change by getting more bland with age. It's just like a song you've heard a thousand times. You can turn it up or down, adjust the bass and treble, but it's still the same old song!

So my question is this: is yeast the new hops? Yeast choices are growing at a very fast rate, there are so many options with regards to Sacc plus other bugs, there are an increasing number of beers with yeast that can be harvested, and yeast blending is increasingly better understood by many homebrewers.

The results can deliver complex beers that evolve, not only over time, but from mouthful to mouthful, depending upon what your palate picks up. There's also a chance (a slim one, but still a chance) that you might hit on something no one else has. Okay, there's also a chance you might create an undrinkable batch, but that's part of the challenge.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
Agree, but disagree.

I don't find hops becoming tiresome, there are new varieties coming out and hopping techniques are still changing with biotransformation being the new thing.

However, I agree yeast choice is amazing and adds a whole new palette for brewers to use.

Both hops and yeast are ingredients, techniques also add a whole new dimension to brewing.

There are new (or more likely old) malts coming on to the market also.


Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
 
I've done a few stouts this year.One I brewed 20 using US04 litres split between 2 fermenters,dry hopped 1 and none for the other and as different as day and night due too the 100g of mixed hops.
The next stout I was heavy handled with roasted ​barley and took a second runnings from this batch.Again first brewed with US04 and second brewed with Gervin 12 and no dry hopping resulting in a bitter stout with a coffee and chocolate note on the first with the second looking and tasting like a dark ale/porter with a toffee fruity flavour.They are lovely too drink in my opinion but all so diverse.

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The Idiot said:
I come from an age when homebrew was the staple reserve of Boots, John Bull kits and beer with a nasty twang, no matter how hard you tried. As more quality ingredients became easily available, the average homebrewer could make better beer, but there was still a lot of style limitations. Hops, for example, generally were limited to EKG and Fuggles. As the years went past, the range evolved, until the interweb arrived.

I make no secret of the fact that I love US and New World hops. That mix of bitter, citrus and earthiness makes me smile. I over-indulge in hops at times. Whether using a single hop variety or combinations, different timings, dry hopping, hop bursting, it's all good.

Here's the thing. As a lover of hoppy beers, they're ultimately very samey. A nice mix of Nelson Sauvin and Cascade, with a late addition of Moteuka tastes great. Simco and Amarillo likewise. Citra and anything also works well. However, while the beers taste great, varying the hops and grain bill slightly still delivers beers that whilst very drinkable are relatively similar.

I don't know whether I've done hops to death, or whether my butterfly mind just wants to move on, but I increasingly find even good IPAs to be just that: good. I drink them (and brew them) because they're nice. And because they're beer.

But they lack something: complexity. They're not stimulating or exciting. They inevitably change by getting more bland with age. It's just like a song you've heard a thousand times. You can turn it up or down, adjust the bass and treble, but it's still the same old song!

So my question is this: is yeast the new hops? Yeast choices are growing at a very fast rate, there are so many options with regards to Sacc plus other bugs, there are an increasing number of beers with yeast that can be harvested, and yeast blending is increasingly better understood by many homebrewers.

The results can deliver complex beers that evolve, not only over time, but from mouthful to mouthful, depending upon what your palate picks up. There's also a chance (a slim one, but still a chance) that you might hit on something no one else has. Okay, there's also a chance you might create an undrinkable batch, but that's part of the challenge.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

A very good post imo.
I know what you mean to a certain degree, if I buy a few IPA's say,William Bros Joker IPA and a Punk IPA they are good but not a million miles apart, I have made a few cracking beers but I'm only a few brews into my AG journey,I would love to know others thoughts as I've only ever used kit yeasts,Mangrove Jacks and US-O5 or US-04 and I know yeasts can have a massive impact on the make up and final flavour of a beer,interested to see what more experienced brewers reply with 👍
 
Yeast is the most important ingredient we use not just for the obvious turning wort to beer but in terms of character and finished taste of the beer. With the current "craft beer" trend a lot of the micro's, especially in the UK, will use bland yeasts like SO4 then add tons of hops to try and create some sort of character. To me the result is they all taste very much the same. I believe balance is the important and yeast choice the key. Also remember the temperature of the mash and fermentation will also have an effect.
 
I'm surprised they use a standard yeast , I always thought they had some special yeast? I asked the Williams Bros for a little of their yeast as I live close to the brewery , I'm still waiting on a response,it was only 8 weeks ago,they must be busy .......😀
 
I attended a lecture at Newcastle University a couple of weeks ago by Keith Thomas, the owner of Brewlab and Lecturer at Sunderland University. His main interest is yeast. He was discussing this exact possibility of yeast becoming very versatile and being customised for designer beers.

there is a Yeast database with the genomes of specific yeasts being fully described and the prospect of manipulating them for specific traits in beers. He concluded that this will be come a big thing in the next few years and homebrewers can be involved in this . You want fruity, or even a specific fruit flavour then it may be possible to achieve this level of specificity in a few years. Keith is at the top of his game and knows a thing or two about yeast so I do think this will happen.

One of the most important pieces of advice I was given at Brewlab was " get to know your yeasts" Know how fast, flocculent attentive and what flavours they give. Try different yeasts for the same beers and build up experience of how they operate good and bad.
I, like a lot of brewers probably relied on one or two yeasts for most of my early ales but I now try different ones and am in the process of splitting ales and doing a direct comparison.

A Peter Kay said "Yeast, it's the Future" ( I made that bit up!)
 
I find it a lot of styles where hops are not exploding in your mouth then yeast plays a big part other than chowing down on sugar and producing the beer.

I will hold my hands up and admit I haven't tried all the dry styles for English but i find English styles favour a good strain.. Nottingham (wilko gervin12) always a handy yeast to have but falls a little wide of the mark for me. Safale S-04 was okay but I have preferred the other English yeasts I have used.
 
trueblue said:
Yeast is the most important ingredient we use not just for the obvious turning wort to beer but in terms of character and finished taste of the beer. With the current "craft beer" trend a lot of the micro's, especially in the UK, will use bland yeasts like SO4 then add tons of hops to try and create some sort of character. To me the result is they all taste very much the same. I believe balance is the important and yeast choice the key. Also remember the temperature of the mash and fermentation will also have an effect.
Click to expand...
That couldn't be further from the truth. Unless you assume that they only brew West Coast IPAs with US05. Not sure how they knock out Weizens, Saisons, NEIPAs, lagers, goses, etc using S04. I bet more craft breweries use brett and bacteria than any traditional brewery.



Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
 
Sadfield said:
That couldn't be further from the truth. Unless you assume that they only brew West Coast IPAs with US05. Not sure how they knock out Weizens, Saisons, NEIPAs, lagers, goses, etc using S04. I bet more craft breweries use brett and bacteria than any traditional brewery.
Click to expand...

I am talking about the UK micros turning out generic hop monster beers. It would be impossible to brew beers like Saisons and Weizens without the correct yeast. American micros pay far more attention to their yeast.
 
trueblue said:
I am talking about the UK micros turning out generic hop monster beers. It would be impossible to brew beers like Saisons and Weizens without the correct yeast. American micros pay far more attention to their yeast.
Click to expand...
For example? Generic hop monsters is a sweeping statement.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
 
The Idiot said:
I come from an age when homebrew was the staple reserve of Boots, John Bull kits and beer with a nasty twang, no matter how hard you tried. As more quality ingredients became easily available, the average homebrewer could make better beer, but there was still a lot of style limitations. Hops, for example, generally were limited to EKG and Fuggles. As the years went past, the range evolved, until the interweb arrived.

I make no secret of the fact that I love US and New World hops. That mix of bitter, citrus and earthiness makes me smile. I over-indulge in hops at times. Whether using a single hop variety or combinations, different timings, dry hopping, hop bursting, it's all good.

Here's the thing. As a lover of hoppy beers, they're ultimately very samey. A nice mix of Nelson Sauvin and Cascade, with a late addition of Moteuka tastes great. Simco and Amarillo likewise. Citra and anything also works well. However, while the beers taste great, varying the hops and grain bill slightly still delivers beers that whilst very drinkable are relatively similar.

I don't know whether I've done hops to death, or whether my butterfly mind just wants to move on, but I increasingly find even good IPAs to be just that: good. I drink them (and brew them) because they're nice. And because they're beer.

But they lack something: complexity. They're not stimulating or exciting. They inevitably change by getting more bland with age. It's just like a song you've heard a thousand times. You can turn it up or down, adjust the bass and treble, but it's still the same old song!

So my question is this: is yeast the new hops? Yeast choices are growing at a very fast rate, there are so many options with regards to Sacc plus other bugs, there are an increasing number of beers with yeast that can be harvested, and yeast blending is increasingly better understood by many homebrewers.

The results can deliver complex beers that evolve, not only over time, but from mouthful to mouthful, depending upon what your palate picks up. There's also a chance (a slim one, but still a chance) that you might hit on something no one else has. Okay, there's also a chance you might create an undrinkable batch, but that's part of the challenge.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

I think they are both important. If you swapped out galaxy for ekg you should notice the difference :oops: I find yeast plays a big part in changing the beer, I did the same beer only swapping out the yeast and that made a noticable change, plus the ferment temps make a big difference too . A wheat beer yeast can throw out bananas or clove depending on ferment temps so there are probably just as many yeast options as there are hops.

I've tried about 10 different dry yeasts of which I have 3 or 4 old favorites.
 
Sadfield said:
For example? Generic hop monsters is a sweeping statement.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I am bit of a yeast fiend to the point I tend to phone any local brewery big or small to try and blag some yeast. Most of the more established ones are happy to share yeast but the 3 newish micros in my area all said they mainly use SO4 or SO5. Two fellow brewers did the Bermondsey mile before Christmas, I could not make it, all brewery's on the mile are known as craft brewers. As brewers they made a point of asking questions and I believe 4 of the brewery's said SO4 or SO5 the others they got no answer.
I was at the London and south east competition last month, ironically at one of the Bermonsey brewery's and had a great talk with one of the judges about hoppy beers and he was of the same opinion about the majority of new brewery's going by his own experience of judging around the country.
 
There certainly is more consideration these days for yeast. Maybe its hops that have stripped my pallet but I can't really tell much difference from one type of yeast to the next, for example US-05 vs MJ M44 US West coast vs Crossmyloof US Pale Ale.
Obviously, the same stout brewed twice one with S-04 and the other with a kolsch yeast will be different, maybe the key is some ballsy experimenting to come up with a stout or ipa that is radically different due to yeast selection.
I certainly see where the OP is coming from though, I'v chucked all kinds of hops in to a boil at different times and the beer while nice isn't massively different from the last. I think that over bittering could play a part leaving a beer with a high IBU at the expense of complexity.
To this end, the other week I did a kind of copy of brewdogs Citra. I say kind of because i only copied the hop profile :

2.5g citra 60 min
10g citra 30 min
37.5g citra 1 min

I'm hoping that the small 60 min addition will let the 30 min and 1 min additions come through.
 
Covrich said:
I will hold my hands up and admit I haven't tried all the dry styles for English but i find English styles favour a good strain.. Nottingham (wilko gervin12) always a handy yeast to have but falls a little wide of the mark for me. Safale S-04 was okay but I have preferred the other English yeasts I have used.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me what are your favourites?

I must admit, I'm yet to be convinced by the "yeast makes a huge difference" arguement. Been homebrewing 6 years, 100+ brews, mainly British-style ales, tried a number of different yeasts but haven't been able to notice any real difference e.g. I wanted a fruity brew and tried MJ M15 Empire Ale yeast, and to me it tasted the same as S-04. The only difference I can see is that some stick to the bottom of bottles better than others.

It could of course be my taste buds, but it would be helpful if you can point me to a yeast where I'd really notice a difference in an English Ale (my staples are S-04, US-05 and Nottingham).
 
My point isn't that you forget about hops; they're part of the equation, just as grain and other adjuncts are. I think what I'm alluding to is that you can use different hops at different times, alone or in combination, and you get varying degrees of bitterness or fruitiness or spice or earthiness. That's an integral part of the beer's taste and aroma. However, it's one dimension of the taste and aroma.

You can't forget about malt and adjuncts either. They are equally essential and yes, there's lot of things you can do with regards to mash, boil, combinations of grain, etc.. They often dictate much of the beer's taste and body, and they deserved to be played with.

How often do we all spend ages working out grain bills and hop timings to create a beer of a certain taste and aroma and body? Then maybe too many of us just pick a suitable yeast (or a simple one, or a common one, or the one we got cheap online).

I find myself caring less about grain and hops and even style, and instead thinking about how combinations of yeast can add something that goes beyond taste and aroma and body. Homebrewing trends have played around with grain and hops and fruit and nuts and even pine trees. Aside from a few homebrewers, the complexity of blending and experimenting with yeasts and bacteria are too often passed by. Why?

I was very much the brewer I'm talking about; I twaddled around with different grains and hops and added nuts and fruit and bacon and stuff, and I liked the beers that came out the other end. I've drunk them before and I'll drink them again, and I still make them. I still like them a lot.

However, the complexity of some homebrewed beers I've tried recently where the yeast characteristics pull in different directions but end up with a glorious finish make me realise that I'm only playing at this making beer lark. Hops and grain do add accents, but only accents. The yeast seems to be the creator (and at times the destroyer) of truly great beer by adding complexity and a certain degree of sensory evolution.
 
darrellm said:
Can you tell me what are your favourites?

I must admit, I'm yet to be convinced by the "yeast makes a huge difference" arguement. Been homebrewing 6 years, 100+ brews, mainly British-style ales, tried a number of different yeasts but haven't been able to notice any real difference e.g. I wanted a fruity brew and tried MJ M15 Empire Ale yeast, and to me it tasted the same as S-04. The only difference I can see is that some stick to the bottom of bottles better than others.

It could of course be my taste buds, but it would be helpful if you can point me to a yeast where I'd really notice a difference in an English Ale (my staples are S-04, US-05 and Nottingham).
Click to expand...

I don't think you will see a great difference with dried yeast. The big variety comes with liquid yeast and if you can get live brewery yeast it is on a different level. They don't spend a lot of money on yeast labs without good reason.
 
darrellm said:
Can you tell me what are your favourites?

I must admit, I'm yet to be convinced by the "yeast makes a huge difference" arguement. Been homebrewing 6 years, 100+ brews, mainly British-style ales, tried a number of different yeasts but haven't been able to notice any real difference e.g. I wanted a fruity brew and tried MJ M15 Empire Ale yeast, and to me it tasted the same as S-04. The only difference I can see is that some stick to the bottom of bottles better than others.

It could of course be my taste buds, but it would be helpful if you can point me to a yeast where I'd really notice a difference in an English Ale (my staples are S-04, US-05 and Nottingham).
Click to expand...

Have you thought about maybe adding a bit of something like Saccharomyces Bruxellensis Trois to the secondary and dry hopping. That would give you more fruitiness and add a bit more depth to whatever the S-04 has done. Another fruit option would be to combine a good English Ale yeast with one of the less dry French saison yeasts. Try adding it at different times but at amounts where the English yeast will remain dominant. Maybe add it when the English yeast flocs out with some new wort and ramp up the temperature until it finishes?
 
The Idiot said:
I find myself caring less about grain and hops and even style, and instead thinking about how combinations of yeast can add something that goes beyond taste and aroma and body. Homebrewing trends have played around with grain and hops and fruit and nuts and even pine trees. Aside from a few homebrewers, the complexity of blending and experimenting with yeasts and bacteria are too often passed by. Why
Click to expand...

I have thought of blending yeast but chickened out. One trouble with duel stains is one tends to overpower with time. Adnams use a duel strain but have to renew after a few generations.
 
trueblue said:
I have thought of blending yeast but chickened out. One trouble with duel stains is one tends to overpower with time. Adnams use a duel strain but have to renew after a few generations.
Click to expand...

I think that's the crux of it for many people. In the past I've been wary of it for the same reason. However, I make my own beer because I like beer but most of all I like the process and I want to explore what can be done.

Yeast blends will change over time, and one might become dominant, but even reusing the blended yeast it'll only be viable for five or six goes, and if its become a single(ish) strain by then, who cares? Just add something else!

You could theoretically save the yeast from a primary and add another for secondary in a split batch. I was also thinking of building up the yeasts in the combinations and then saving some of the original as well.
 

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