HMRC registration, not so daft an idea after all

[Robin54]

Its a minefield, though I remember, in Northern Germany, a few years ago, I bought many pints of beer from a local "Viking" nutcase who made mead and beer which he sold at a local music festival + another guy who sold loads of distilled stuff...all very good it was too. No complaints and no guy in a hi viz jacket taking notes..but hey, in germany, you can do what you want, but not here it seems.

 

[Covrich]

If you can only consume it within the plot it was brewed hb competitions or bottle swaps would be illegal?

 

[HebridesRob]

http://www.thelawforum.co.uk/help-legality-sharing-home-brew

 

[AlanManley]

Another thought... what if you became a "gypsy" brewer and used somewhere like uBrew as the brewery (their equipment, facilities, etc) and sold under your own label?

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[simon12]

Another thought... what if you became a "gypsy" brewer and used somewhere like uBrew as the brewery (their equipment, facilities, etc) and sold under your own label?

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As for ubrew there crowd funding page says
"How does selling the beer work re-duty etc?

We handle the admin of duty, you simply declare to us whether you intend sell your beer or not every time you brew up a batch. If the beer leaves the premises with the intent to sell, duty must be paid. If it's for personal consumption, then there's no duty required!"

Which I thought was not possible as if its registered to make dutyable beer I thought HMRC where clear that all the beer is dutyable. They may have a special arrangement with HMRC or i'm just wrong.

Another common alternative is contract brewing where you give a recipe to a brewery and they make it and package it as you require and deliver it to you to sell. I looked into it a while back and there are very few that will do less than 20BBL and noone will do less than 10BBL. There are some breweries that will let you use there equipment instead but I never looked into it.

 

[simon12]

I'm not sure I agree. I doubt every jam maker, cake baker that has provided produce for a fete etc has needed to go through the registration and inspection process.

https://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/caterers/food-hygiene/charity-community-groups



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I was told that you had to have authorisation for the council to do any of this. Don't know if your market counts as "village hall or other community setting for volunteers and charity groups." but it looks like I have much to learn.

 

[AlanManley]

I know West Berkshire Brewery allow their Homebrew Club members to use a 100ltr kit to brew. Not sure or the particulars just something I heard the other week.

I'm going along Saturday so will find out more then. Interesting about uBrew though. Will maybe look into that as then duty is paid upfront and not a concern? You then just sell it with no impact I guess?

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[F00b4r]

Its a minefield, though I remember, in Northern Germany, a few years ago, I bought many pints of beer from a local "Viking" nutcase who made mead and beer which he sold at a local music festival + another guy who sold loads of distilled stuff...all very good it was too. No complaints and no guy in a hi viz jacket taking notes..but hey, in germany, you can do what you want, but not here it seems.

Germany has much stricter rules in general around home brew, you have to actually register yourself with local customs and excise if you home brew and if you brew over a pretty low amount you also have to pay tax on it.

 

[Dads_Ale]

I know West Berkshire Brewery allow their Homebrew Club members to use a 100ltr kit to brew. Not sure or the particulars just something I heard the other week.

I'm going along Saturday so will find out more then. Interesting about uBrew though. Will maybe look into that as then duty is paid upfront and not a concern? You then just sell it with no impact I guess?

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That would be me that used it twice.

The first one was used in the brewery bar and the second was sold at their OctoberWest beer festival a couple of weeks ago.

These were part of a couple of competitions so not contract brewing.

 

[pbibby]

Abraham's brewery in Barrow in Furness has closed down due to hmrc rules. He only brewed 9 gallons for sale and 4.5 gallons for personal consumption. Hmrc insist he had to pay duty on everything he brewed including the 4.5 galls for personal consumption.

 

[teadixon]

Another thought... what if you became a "gypsy" brewer and used somewhere like uBrew as the brewery (their equipment, facilities, etc) and sold under your own label?

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I've been wondering about this lately. This is what Mikkeller do.

How would it work legally over here?

Edit: Sorry, I mean to be 'gypsy brewer' and use different people's set ups but with a consistent brand/identity of your own.

 

[MyQul]

I've been wondering about this lately. This is what Mikkeller do.

How would it work legally over here?

Edit: Sorry, I mean to be 'gypsy brewer' and use different people's set ups but with a consistent brand/identity of your own.

I used to buy my grain from ubrew (its about 30 mins walk from me). From listening in on converstations whilst I was waiting for my grain, they have all the liscences nessesary and you brew your beer at ubrew and flog it in their tap house under your own name. I imagine if you wanted to sell it elsewhere you'd need the requisite liscences

 

[Druncan]

Abraham's brewery in Barrow in Furness has closed down due to hmrc rules. He only brewed 9 gallons for sale and 4.5 gallons for personal consumption. Hmrc insist he had to pay duty on everything he brewed including the 4.5 galls for personal consumption.

We have brewed legally for 7 months. Done returns and paid duty. No G/Tee or any other registration required. HMRC were slow and not pro-active. But answered appropriate questions allowing us to progress. Cover all the requirements and that should be it.

We have had Eat safe, EHO, TSO and Licensing inspections. We comply, Is that not how you run a business?

HMRC, IMHO do not have issues if you meet their requirements. Why would you do otherwise,,, Is there some history on Abraham's we do not know?

 

[pbibby]

Sounds like you're doing everything right.
John mulholland of Abraham Thompsons had a half barrel plant and only brewed occasionally. When hmrc enforced rules that everything brewed including for personal consumption was liable for duty he deregistered his plant and gave up commercial brewing. If you brewing 10 bbl that not a lot but it was 1/3 of his production.

 

[The Idiot]

You cannot sell home-brew or any other form of drinkable alcohol that isn't duty paid legally at all.

I'm pretty sure that there is an exception for cider producers so long as the production is under a certain quantity.

 

[Druncan]

Sounds like you're doing everything right.
John mulholland of Abraham Thompsons had a half barrel plant and only brewed occasionally. When hmrc enforced rules that everything brewed including for personal consumption was liable for duty he deregistered his plant and gave up commercial brewing. If you brewing 10 bbl that not a lot but it was 1/3 of his production.

We are only 1BB, but HMRC small brewer relief means it's only £9.18 /HL % of Alcohol of beers produced (as long as below 7.5% ABV)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ol-duty/alcohol-duty-rates-from-24-march-2014

We just pay for any party beer as the cost is minimal with respect to the end enjoyment factor:grin: It's also a viable pr exercise.

 

[Cwrw666]

Abraham's brewery in Barrow in Furness has closed down due to hmrc rules. He only brewed 9 gallons for sale and 4.5 gallons for personal consumption. Hmrc insist he had to pay duty on everything he brewed including the 4.5 galls for personal consumption.

This is just normal practice for any business. Say you grow potatoes to sell as a business - if you take a sack of spuds home for your own consumption you're meant to declare it and pay taxes on it.

 

[DethApostle]

So for the sake of argument if I wanted to register my Grainfather as a brewery with HMRC... and assuming I passed all the other requirements with EHO etc etc etc...
I would be liable to pay £2.11 per 23l batch in Duty probably regardless of whether I then choose to sell it or drink it myself? (based on £9.18 per Hl, GF brewlength of 23l=0.23Hl)

*** WARNING: Extremely loose accounting below!!! ***
23l = 42x 500ml bottles allowing for wastage
Selling 42 bottles at 2 per bottle = 84 income
84 minus 2.11 duty minus 20 ingredient costs = c. 62 profit

Obviously this doesn't account for a brewers time or utilities costs or liability insurance costs. Anything else obvious I've missed?

At 23l brewlength it's not viable to support a Brewers wage clearly but having a career change is not the point of the exercise!
If you brewed 12 times a year as I do that'd be c. £25 in payable duty and easily covered by the sale of just 1 batch! If you had no intention of selling/gifting anything then it's a totally unnecessary cost however if you wanted to give yourself the ability to sell/gift then it's not that expensive really is it?

If anyone wants to sense check that rambling text feel free to correct me!
DA

DA

 

[IainM]

So for the sake of argument if I wanted to register my Grainfather as a brewery with HMRC... and assuming I passed all the other requirements with EHO etc etc etc...
I would be liable to pay �£2.11 per 23l batch in Duty probably regardless of whether I then choose to sell it or drink it myself? (based on �£9.18 per Hl, GF brewlength of 23l=0.23Hl)

*** WARNING: Extremely loose accounting below!!! ***
23l = 42x 500ml bottles allowing for wastage
Selling 42 bottles at 2 per bottle = 84 income
84 minus 2.11 duty minus 20 ingredient costs = c. 62 profit

Obviously this doesn't account for a brewers time or utilities costs or liability insurance costs. Anything else obvious I've missed?

At 23l brewlength it's not viable to support a Brewers wage clearly but having a career change is not the point of the exercise!
If you brewed 12 times a year as I do that'd be c. �£25 in payable duty and easily covered by the sale of just 1 batch! If you had no intention of selling/gifting anything then it's a totally unnecessary cost however if you wanted to give yourself the ability to sell/gift then it's not that expensive really is it?

If anyone wants to sense check that rambling text feel free to correct me!
DA

DA

This is £2.11 per percent alcohol. So if the brew was 5% ABV, then it would be five times that, or £10.55.

 

[DethApostle]

This is £2.11 per percent alcohol. So if the brew was 5% ABV, then it would be five times that, or £10.55.

Ah!!!
Ok, so assuming only brewing 4% beers the back-of-a-beermat accounting becomes:

84 minus 8.44 minus 20 = c. 56 profit
and the annual total becomes £101, meaning you'd need to sell 2 out of 12 to cover the duty expense.

Sound right?