Water additions with RO water

[hoppyscotty]

I do my water additions via the Brewfather calculator...I confess I have a very rudimentary understanding of the chemistry, though my understanding is growing slowly, but I blindly follow the calculator, and get pretty good results and have experimented with tweaking water chemistry and seen differences in the beer.

More recently I;ve been diluting my tap water with RO water and now want to give brewing with 100% RO water a go. I noticed in the Brewfather water calculator settings there are a plethora of other addition options, things like slacked lime, baking soda, chalk and a few others. I assume my tap water will have most of these components in it so for breweing with 100% RO water and starting with a clean sheet as it were, should I turn on all of the Addition options to get as broad a 'palette' of additions as possible? Or is it a case that it is giving you different options so you can pick and choose how you build up your profile so alot of these options are a case of 'either or' rather than 'as well as'?

Thanks.

 

[peebee]

Well, this has had the daylight hours and not a peep from anyone ... so hard luck, you get me instead!

"Brewing water" is "very rudimentary" chemistry, so no bother there then. A lot being said is nonsense, made out to be complicated to keep some inflated egos "puffed up". I only realised this not long past, after which things got so much easier, almost as easy as a few years ago when we'd think it clever to chuck in a teaspoon full of gypsum and 1/2tsp Epson salt.

First step: "Hardness". Forget it. If anyone tries to explain how useful it is, threaten to beat them with a large swish of wet leaves.

"Chalk" or "CaCO3". If they are talking about these, they're probably talking about "Hardness", so wave the wet leaves at them. Chalk is virtually insoluble and "CaCO3" is a favourite "pretend" item (i.e. doesn't exist) used to put a value on things (like "mph" is a mark on paper and doesn't make your car go faster).

All water that comes out of your tap and you'd care to drink has the same six basic constituents, two or three of "passing interest", plus a list as long as your arm of stuff measured in "parts-per-billion" that you ain't interested in (unless it'll harm you, in which case you won't be told, or you added it yourself).

Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Sulphate, Chloride and Bicarbonate. You've heard of them before because they'll be present in any drinkable water on this planet, just in different proportions. there's just that few of "passing interest like Nitrates and Phosphates that are only present in significant amounts because of human activity (err ... pollution?).

Those six are not there to make better beer. They've always been there, and over time we've established that that beer is better with this mix, and this beer is better with that mix, and so on.

Bicarbonate is special. Its presence is all down to a phenomenon we've called "Alkalinity". Manipulating it helps get the right "pH" for your mash.

And how do you do the manipulations?

You get a reputable "water calculator" (I use "Bru'n Water" and "Mash-made-Easy", there's loads and some are free), plug your figures in, and blindly follow the output. Ignore them when they start rabbiting on about "Hardness" and "CaCO3". If they start suggesting adding chalk (CaCO3), it's perhaps time to find another calculator. More help and irreverent commentary in my "Defuddler" spreadsheet, but I know you've already got it (it's been updated recently and both downloads are identical ... unless I've updated either since writing this).

 

[hoppyscotty]

Thanks for coming to my rescue Peebee! Always happy to hear from you when I submit a silly question!

I have got bru'n'water but defaulted to Brewfather for convenience so will be interesting to see what that calculator comes up with.

I started messing around with RO water mainly to manage alkalinity to prevent the to'ing a fro'ing with acid additions...the calculators never work for mash ph and by the time I've faffed around with measuring ph and adding acid half the mash time was gone so you're not getting the full mash times benefit of being at the right ph, so wanted a more accurate way to hit mash ph from the get go. Worked well but just thought about trying a few brews with 100% RO just to see what all the fuss is about. The only research I've done around water chemistry is around profiles to suit different beer styles, but like I said, don't really understand the fundamentals of it.

When I turn all the options for additions in Brewfather it comes up with additions against all the additions, some tiny, so probably not worth bothering about, but some reasonably substantial relative to the more usual additions, so got me wondering if I should be stocking up on some additional ingredients for 100% RO. I accept I wont necessarily need it with tap water or a tap water/RO blend.

 

[peebee]

Cor! A "thanks"? That is definitely better than the rain of half-bricks I inspire from some others.

I shouldn't come down so strongly against "Water Hardness": Like many others, only ten-twenty years ago I knew of nothing else (like: What's "Alkalinity"?), but a spoonful of gypsum would put things right? "Hardness" does the job for many, as long as they understand it, and as long as they are not trying to use it outside its "envelope". Based on historical understandings (which required the essential analytical requirement of a bar of soap) it has some "holes" in its approach, especially in it not covering salts of sodium and potassium. No bother, except for a very few rare geological locations, and the increased use of ion exchange in water treatment (not large scale and out of the hands of users in the UK).

But mixing a slightly flawed ancient methodology with something a bit more up-to-date (and as it happens, simpler) is insanity! The only reason I can handle it is I have the appropriate mental capability to deal with it (err ... I am insane!). The modern methods are a little bit heavier on simple arithmetic, but these days we all have calculators, computers, ... mobile phones for goodness sake.

Not so long ago I'd get really wound up by the use of bottled water and RO water for brewing, but more recently I've been able to understand it's not the brewers, it's the distorted immensely complicated advice being handed out. I can only imagine there are groups who benefit (financially?) from putting out the misinformation. Then I start watching these scary programs and news articles about the profit driven deceitful actions of UK water companies* (especially relating to sewerage!) ... maybe I shouldn't only stop ranting about the use of these "packaged" waters, but perhaps I should join in using them!


*That needs clarifying! UK companies only have a stake of about 10% ownership of UK water companies [Revealed: more than 70% of English water industry is in foreign ownership].

 

[tigertim]

I'm on a similar (if not the same) journey - my tap water is pretty hard and is also very variable between moderately and very hard so would difficult to predict even when diluting with RO. However I did my first brew using entirely Tesco Ashbeck (Murgy Straight) and it's proven to me that my tap water is a major limiting factor in my brewing (it's the third time I've brewed it, the first two were with tap water and it's a night and day difference in improvement), so I'm planning to go completely RO using Spotless (there's a dispenser quite near me).

I'm happy to build up my water profiles using Grainfather/Brewfather but, as above, there seem to be a number of additions which have small enough quantities that they feel like they may be irrelevant - I'm about to put in an order at Malt Miller so what would you recommend I should have as my essential additions in my "toolbox"?

ETA: As a bit of background, the reason this is largely new to me is that I used to live in an area with Severn Trent water which seemed pretty good for most of my brews, so half a campden tablet was pretty much all I ever needed to worry about.

 

[Rwilts]

Most recipes I have done have all asked for a combination of.
Gypsum
Epsom salts
Calcium chloride
Lactic acid

 

[peebee]

... I did my first brew using entirely Tesco Ashbeck (Murgy Straight) and it's proven to me that my tap water is a major limiting factor in my brewing ...

Your tap water isn't the "major limiting factor in <your> brewing", but your love of describing your water as "hard" is holding you back no end. Read the narrative in that "Water Defuddler" spreadsheet I wrote (linked in my signature - tip your mobile phone into "portrait" to see signatures if that's what you use). It's mainly "tongue-in-cheek" so shouldn't be too difficult to read and the reading is found in the "Foetid Mire" area.

It might put an end to ever describing your water as "hard" again and will make your understanding of brewing water fantastically easy.



I notice Neil Williams (Phoenix Analytical) has recently polished up his Web site, and it has the words "Total hardness IS NOT reported as it has no brewing value and only leads to confusion":

https://phoenix-analytical.co.uk/water_analysis/wateranalysis.html
I can't have hoped for better support in my quest to see off "Water Hardness" (I can't claim to be the only person with that view of "seeing off water hardness" either).

 

[Omega]

Wonder what you would suggest in my case - I live in hard water area, so I installed water softener for all normal taps and installed drinking water tap with a filter. So, I know my water profile is different from what is in the water main, therefore, the water chemical profile water companies supply won't work for me.
Another is about RO - should I get it? At the moment, I mainly do IPA kits and usually use water from my drinking tap. The results seem to be good, I do not know if they become better if I start using RO and add Gypsum, Calcium chloride etc. I also rarely do lager kits - then I use Tesco Ashbeck water because it has reputation of being very clean. 20 litres of Ashbeck is £6 and I would add £10 worth of hassle to buy and bring the water, so £16 per 20 litres of lager. I will probably do about 4 batches of lager per year. However, I know I should change filters for RO on a regular basis - I probably won't be using it for IPA, but still they probably deteriorate with time, not only the amount of water that it purified
And are there RO systems that do not need to plumb into? I know there are manual RO systems, but they are expensive and not very productive, and, if I remember, RO usually requires quite a high pressure to work. I think I used all extensions under my sink - washing machine, filter, water softener...
Thanks

 

[peebee]

Wonder what you would suggest in my case - I live in hard water area, ...

Water softeners are a disaster for brewing! They work by replacing calcium and magnesium ions in the water with sodium (potassium if you've deep pockets and are overly anxious). That removes the elements responsible for so-called hardness but also elements that you needed in the beer (and to some extent by your body). But the "Alkalinity" is not affected! So, if the "Alkalinity" is too high, you still have that to deal with despite the water "softener". And you might be adding salts to bump up the Calcium levels too. I don't know if there is anything good to say about them, especially for beer brewing.? Will keep kettles from furring up (and radiators for central heating, etc).

RO water can be used and it will have very low "Alkalinity". It can be used to dilute the tap water. Though there's not anywhere in the UK where it's essential. Use commercial RO water units (many use "Spotless") because the domestic units are terrifically inefficient (most water goes down the drain). Acid treatments are possibly more effective.

As for more advice ... Read the stuff in the "Defuddler" like I recommended a couple of posts back. And stop thinking "my water is hard!". Neil (aka "Wally") at Phoenix Analytical gave me a roasting recently for talk about "soft water", so me being a grumpy bugg... person, I am passing it on!

 

[stripeyjoe]

And are there RO systems that do not need to plumb into?

Look up Spotless water, if you have one near you then you can get RO water for pennies, my last fill was 37l for £1.55!
If you use my referral link to sign up you’ll get £10 credit as well, refer a couple of people and you’ll pretty much get free water as they give you £10 as well!

https://portal.spotlesswater.co.uk/?promocode=spotless22679

 

[hoppyscotty]

Yeah if you have a Spotless water outlet near you it really is not worth getting an RO system and faffing around dealing with all the waste water they produce and replacement of filters etc. Spotless is great and dirt cheap. Alot cheaper than buying spring water from the supermarket.

 

[Rwilts]

May be of interest

 

[peebee]

Yeah if you have a Spotless water outlet near you it really is not worth getting an RO system and faffing around dealing with all the waste water they produce and replacement of filters etc. Spotless is great and dirt cheap. Alot cheaper than buying spring water from the supermarket.

I think it might have been you that inspired me to check out the RO option (I have no need for it, there's not much in my water anyway.

But something you said that does need elaborating: "... not worth getting an RO system and faffing around dealing with all the wastewater they produce and replacement of filters etc.". The commercial units (multi-stage, not single stage like the domestic units) don't create anything like the waste (and have a more predictable output). It's really the reason I do recommend "Spotless" and the like; I'm trying to be "public spirited" ( ... okay, I'll go choke to death now!).

 

[hoppyscotty]

That's interesting though wasn't thinking about the overall efficiency of the production of the RO with Spotless, just he fact that domestic units generate a 3 - 4 litres of waste water for every litre of RO so for for me on my larger system I'm looking at something like 120 litres+ of waste water...I can use some of that for cleaning and the kettle condenser but not all of that and then need another vessel to store the waste water and space is scarce in my brewery space. OK I can chuck it on the garden, but looking at the rain outside I don't think my garden is wanting or needing any more moisture.

 

[Omega]

Look up Spotless water, if you have one near you then you can get RO water for pennies, my last fill was 37l for £1.55!
If you use my referral link to sign up you’ll get £10 credit as well, refer a couple of people and you’ll pretty much get free water as they give you £10 as well!

https://portal.spotlesswater.co.uk/?promocode=spotless22679

Cool. I need to have a look at them - there are two places in my town that do. Do you come with your bottles/canisters and fill up? How does it work? Because I won’t need it often, so think maybe 40-80 litres a year

 

[Twostage]

Cool. I need to have a look at them - there are two places in my town that do. Do you come with your bottles/canisters and fill up? How does it work? Because I won’t need it often, so think maybe 40-80 litres a year

I kept some 5 litre supermarket water containers and use them.

 

[YeastFace]

24 Pure Water is an alternative to Spotless.

Bit cheaper and £20 credit when registering via App (no referral needed). 25 litres was £1.04 so won't have to pay for a while.

As to how it works, it's like a fuel pump. I got a 25l jerry can from Amazon for about £8.

 

[Omega]

24 Pure Water is an alternative to Spotless.

Bit cheaper and £20 credit when registering via App (no referral needed). 25 litres was £1.04 so won't have to pay for a while.

As to how it works, it's like a fuel pump. I got a 25l jerry can from Amazon for about £8.

it is too far for me. And thanks for suggesting 25l Jerry can - I may get myself a few. Wonder if water can become contained in the can if I do not use it for a while…

 

[MashBag]

Yes it can become contaminated

 

[Omega]

I want to store some water at home as well, just in case, probably about 80 litres. Thinking this water should be used for brewing to rotate. I guess I won't know if it is contaminated or not until I try it. And I guess I can disinfect jerry cans each time before I refill - not much effort, but more confidence it will be fine