2nd runnings error?

[monkeyboy79]

Hello all

Today I've attempted to make an all-grain RIS (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=238807).

After mashing the RIS, i thought I could make a second beer from the spent grains with some added extra grains, and re-mash. I added ~2kg pale malt & 600g rolled oats.

However, after the 60min mash, there still appears to be large starch clumps in the new grains. I dont have iodine so I have to rely on sight.

Some google-foo suggests that the ph of the mash (with all those dark grain husks) may have slowed/stopped the enzymes. Because of the time, my only option was to insulate the mash tun & leave for tomorrow.

So my question is, will this batch ever convert? or should I just ditch the lot tomorrow?


Many thanks, Ian

 

[ManseMasher]

I've never done that, but to me that seems like a high percentage of rolled oats? Not sure, but could that have had something to do with it?

 

[TartanSpecial]

maybe adding 2kg of malt to the 8 or 9kg of spent mashed grains is just too dilute wrt enzyme concentration??

 

[monkeyboy79]

maybe adding 2kg of malt to the 8 or 9kg of spent mashed grains is just too dilute wrt enzyme concentration??

I didn't think of it like that but that makes sense, I guess the conversion could still happen just really slowly, so I'll probably dump it.
Next time i'll get some DME in to bump up the OG.

Many thanks

 

[cheapbrew]

Have you still got it, is it mashing still?

Did you take a hydrometer reading?

it seems a bit strange ditching it after just going on it looks starchy still, unless you are particularly gifted I would check with a hydrometer to see if there is anything sugary in there to try and ferment.

 

[monkeyboy79]

Have you still got it, is it mashing still?

Did you take a hydrometer reading?

it seems a bit strange ditching it after just going on it looks starchy still, unless you are particularly gifted I would check with a hydrometer to see if there is anything sugary in there to try and ferment.

I've still got it, will look again tomorrow morning.
There will definatley be some sugar in there, from the 10kg of spent grains that I did the big beer with (I probably got 70-75% efficiency).
The starch in the new grains was easy to see, as it didn't look like any conversion had happened in the new grains, they looked the same as when I added them.

My two concerns are:
1) would starch not also appear on a hydrometer reading? Its just a molecule that would also increase liquid density?
2) what would happen if I fermented a starchy beer? would it just taste bad, or something worse like encourage infection/bottle bombs?

If there is a batch to be had I'm all for making it, but I don't want to waste a couple of hours boiling, chilling and sanitizing if its probably ruined.

Many thanks

 

[Tony1951]

I'm not sure I could recognise unconverted starch from any other grot that comes off the grains. If I was you I'd taste the wort. If it is sweet, go ahead and brew it.

I well remember the first time I did an AG on the stove top, I was pretty despondent at the sight of some swirling 'stuff' in the boiled wort Here is a photo of my first AG brew with the 'thing' in it.

I was SURE it was a disaster, but I went ahead and brewed it and was amazed at how much better it turned out than any one can kit I'd done up to then. That weird life form thing in the pot just collapses into a thinnish layer of trub at the bottom of the FV.

 

[cheapbrew]

It's either waste an hour or so boiling, chilling, and pitching yeast to see what happens, or waste the lot throwing it away, gotta be worth a punt?

The SG wont tell you what is fermentable and what isn't but it will give you an idea if there is potentially any fermentable sugars

 

[Tony1951]

It's either waste an hour or so boiling, chilling, and pitching yeast to see what happens, or waste the lot throwing it away, gotta be worth a punt?

The SG wont tell you what is fermentable and what isn't but it will give you an idea if there is potentially any fermentable sugars

Assuming he didn't get it really hot in the mash (>70C) any sugars will be fermentable. A test with the hydrometer and a think about his mashing temperature will give him a good idea how much conversion he got. I've never put oats or spent grains in a brew so I have no idea what visual effects they might bring. My guess is that what he has will probably brew OK - though I can't vouch for the flavours.

 

[monkeyboy79]

Hi all,

Many thanks for your responses. I checked again today, and the mash tun did a good job at keeping the mash warm over night.

After inspection, the starch clumps were gone, so something happend and I'm going to boil it up soon.

I've got 24l of 1.057 preboil, so its going to be a much stronger "small beer" than I expected (assuming its drinkable :whistle:).

Cheers!

 

[TartanSpecial]

Wow.. 24l of 1.057 ....that's pretty (very) good going for adding 2kg pale malt and 600grams oats....so was worthwhile experimenting with. Hope it tastes good.

 

[cheapbrew]

Result! :thumb::thumb:

I'm glad it turned out well for ya.

 

[monkeyboy79]

After collecting the runnings I started the boil (in my ACE electric boiler), after adding the bittering hops, the boiler cut out and refused to start for 10 mins, in which time, thunder, lightning and hail started in my street ( and im boiling at the garage door to avoid steam soaking my garage).

Reluctantly, I closed up the kettle & left it for another 24hours, before trying to boil again. Frequent boiler cut outs made me scrap the shedule (it probably had around 40 mins rolling boil total), whirlpool/chill and transfer to the FV.

The tap instanly clogged up on transfering and given my mood i tipped the whole lot, hops & trub into the FV. Given that my plan was to have this in the FV 2 days earlyer, I wasn't sure if my yeast starter was still ok, but I added it anyway and added a couple of old coopers yeasts packets for good measure.

Overnight, the krausen (thick and dark brown) erupted and blew off the airlock, and the lava flowed all over my kitchen table, after a further few hours of slowly pouring out of the FV like builders-expanding foam it finally subsided.

After cleaning up and re-fitting the airlock, it was bubbling at a nice rate. Only for it to blow off the airlock again overnight (repeat last paragraph!).

This was by far the worst brewday(s) I've ever had, if by chance the beer turns out drinkable, I will be very happy.

IF it turns out amazing, I will be very annoyed, as there it no way I could recreate the sequence of events that created it.

Cheers all, I'll update in a month when bottled & conditioned