Cobell Apple Juice Concentrates

[FuzzySteve]

Having found success with various forms of TC made from nearly every type of apple juice from almost every supermarket, my batches are heading towards the 60 litre mark. Whilst its easy to just pop down to Lidl/Aldi/Tesco when you need to make the next one, I've found myself wanting to source a supply of concentrate. I heard that Suma AJ concentrate came in 5 litre packs, but my local health food shop quoted me £28.50 for one, so that ruled out that option.

I emailed a firm called Cobell, which are one of the UK's largest suppliers of fruit concentrates, and asked them if they would be able to supply concentrates to private home brewers. I expected the answer to be negative but they came good, and on Tuesday I'll be taking delivery of 25 kg of concentrate at 68% Brix for dilution.

Has anyone else used Cobell for this before? According to the helpful chap I spoke to, Cobell have supplied home brewers before as well as most manufacturers up to 'the big boys' for when the harvests are insufficient. Sounds like if it works, it could be a good source :)

 

[stanglish]

What's the pricing like buddy for the sake of comparison?

 

[Tim_Crowhurst]

They sell quince concentrate. I wonder if you could make cider with it?

 

[FuzzySteve]

The price I paid as per the above spec was £97.50 for a 25 kg aseptic bag which can be frozen once opened.

My calculations are as follows (feel free to jump on and correct my calculations if they're wrong, as I've been pessimistic). All costing figures do not take into account any additions such as Malic, Tannin or oak chippings.

1kg is approximately 1 litre. 68 brix can be diluted with approximately 5.95 litres to make a solution with a Brix of 11.42, which equates to specific gravity of 1.046. My ciders (produced from AJ from concentrate from most supermarkets) normally start at 1.046 and finish fermenting at 1.000, therefore yielding an ABV of 6.1%, which is a little high if I'm honest.

Therefore 5.95 litres x 25kg = 148.75 litres (call it 145 litres)
£97.50 / 145 = 67 pence per litre or 38 pence per pint.

In my quest for making it a bit more cost effective, if probably aim for an SG of 1.040, which when fermented, should reach an ABV of 5.3%. If working to these calculations I should be able to make this concentrate yield approximately
170 litres/299 pints, at 57 pence/litre or 33 pence/pint.

From my discussions with Cobell, this particular concentrate is a medium acid, with a 3% aroma returned. Apparently this is the preferred product of cider producers due to the medium acid content (apple juice is normally low) and the aroma returned percentage relates to the volatile aromas which are normally lost during the concentration process, comprising Esters, Aldehydes and other alcohols. In normal supermarket juices, this aroma returned is often not present as I'm assuming the concentrate is more expensive and not profitable to include in a budget juice line. I'm hoping that cider made with this stuff is on 'the next level' as far as my cider making is concerned, especially given time for MLF.

 

[FuzzySteve]

They sell quince concentrate. I wonder if you could make cider with it?

I reckon you could make cider/wine out of any of their concentrates if I'm honest. I believe that they blend any juices to order for the commercial customers, maybe they'll do the same for us home brewers. I'd expect the costs to be much higher though.

 

[asd]

Hi,

68 Brix corresponds to a specific gravity of 1.3, which corresponds to about 19 litres of concentrate in 25 Kg.

5.95 x 19 = 113 litres

but then do you add back the original 19 litres into the equation, which gives 132 litres?

If so, 97.50 /132 = 74p litre.

Otherwise, 97.50 /113 = 86p per litre

Simon

 

[FuzzySteve]

Cheers for that Simon. Not sure if the calculators I used were spurious or not :/

I reckon it'll still be worth a stab all the same.

 

[asd]

Yes, i think it would be worth it. I've actually got 25kg of the same concentrate, but haven't got round to using it yet. I bought it a few months ago for £84 delivered from Cobells. I think the price does depend on supply and demand. It says it's 70 Brix, medium acid, 3% aroma returned.

I'm planning to ferment it in 2 60 litre blue mango tubs, which have screw on tops. Thinking of doing one 60 litres using a big starter made with a champagne yeast, then using malocid for MLF . This should give me an Eastern Counties cyder (I do live in Norwich, after all).

I'm going to have a go at doing the full Greysalchemy for the other 60 litres, cultivating up some Old Rosie and doing the malic acid and tannin additions, to give me a West Country style cider.

I haven't quite sorted out any cooling, which I think I will need given the weather and the bulk involved. I'm planning to use my Cornelius Classic chiller which I have just got a new heat dump for. I am planning on putting a product coil through the tops of the barrels, and then recirculating using an STC 1000 and a couple of little dishwasher inlet solenoids i got for a fiver each, and ferment at about 19-20 Centigrade, and then pushing the temp up a bit for MLF - for which I will also make a starter from the Malocid in barrel number one. The other plan would be to wrap the outside of the barrels in coils of garden hose, put insulation over it all, and pass the chilled water through the hose, because I'm not sure about leaving a coil immersed in the cider for a prolonged period. Any views on which would be best?

Also, should I treat the water used for dilution in any way?

Simon.

 

[FuzzySteve]

Glad someone else is going for cider in a big way, and we're reading from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

Mine will be fermented in H&G 60 litre buckets in my brew fridge extension, and like yourself, I'll be brewing two batches and hopefully going for MLF on one and kegging one once clear. I've had success with MLF before using no added malic, just tannin, with a batch I made from tesco AJ and Youngs cider yeast. Doubtful i'll have the same success on this scale if I'm honest.

In response to your question, I'm going to treat the water as I would with my AG brews; campden and left overnight.

 

[asd]

Glad someone else is going for cider in a big way, and we're reading from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

Mine will be fermented in H&G 60 litre buckets in my brew fridge extension, and like yourself, I'll be brewing two batches and hopefully going for MLF on one and kegging one once clear. I've had success with MLF before using no added malic, just tannin, with a batch I made from tesco AJ and Youngs cider yeast. Doubtful i'll have the same success on this scale if I'm honest.

In response to your question, I'm going to treat the water as I would with my AG brews; campden and left overnight.

Thanks regarding the water - I was thinking on those lines. It should be all right without boiling, I guess, if a good healthy starter is added.

That must be some brew fridge! I've sort of picked up the idea that temp control isn't quite so crucial with cider fermentation - that some of the esters, etc. produced can add to the final product. However, I am going to keep things under control as I don't want to screw up 120 litres.

And on a completely different tack, I have noticed Gervin wine yeast "Varietal D German Strain" which "gives wines with ecxcellent bouquet and which mature quickly; reduces level of malic acid" and "This yeast has two particular characteristics. Firstly it produces an exceptionally fine bouquet and secondly it can metabolise up to 35% of any malic acid present in the must. This makes it very useful when the fruit base of wine may be overly acidic ie apple, gooseberry or rhubarb."

Has anyone tried this in cider? Would it be a good idea?

Simon.

 

[alanywiseman.]

HERE is my cider using Suma Apple Concentrate. Both are now undergoing MLF and I will bottle them up closer to christmas. They are tasting very promising :party:

 

[FuzzySteve]

That must be some brew fridge! I've sort of picked up the idea that temp control isn't quite so crucial with cider fermentation - that some of the esters, etc. produced can add to the final product. However, I am going to keep things under control as I don't want to screw up 120 litres.

My fridge is only an insulated extension. This cider will be its first true test of keeping things cooler than the outside temperature and not the other way around. I have issues with keeping the air circulated, so I've bought a small fan from B&Q to see if that helps.

I'm in agreement with the temps, but I'm always afraid of going too high and developing Fusel alcohols, so I normally set the temp down to 19°C for the first couple of days, then up to 20°C thereafter. So far its worked for me. This time will also be my first attempt at crash cooling to clear the cider as the past few ambient attempts have taken two weeks given the weather we've had recently.

HERE is my cider using Suma Apple Concentrate. Both are now undergoing MLF and I will bottle them up closer to christmas. They are tasting very promising :party:

I was following your thread closely Alan, and that's why I tried to get hold of the Suma AJ concentrate, but sadly to no avail within budget

 

[Tim_Crowhurst]

And on a completely different tack, I have noticed Gervin wine yeast "Varietal D German Strain" which "gives wines with ecxcellent bouquet and which mature quickly; reduces level of malic acid" and "This yeast has two particular characteristics. Firstly it produces an exceptionally fine bouquet and secondly it can metabolise up to 35% of any malic acid present in the must. This makes it very useful when the fruit base of wine may be overly acidic ie apple, gooseberry or rhubarb."

Has anyone tried this in cider? Would it be a good idea?

Simon.

I wouldn't use it specifically because it reduces malic acid. The amount of acid in commercial AJ tends to be much lower than you'd want for cider, so it best to avoid reducing the amount of malic acid further. You may even need to add extra malic acid.

 

[asd]

OK , just an interesting sounding yeast.

S

 

[graysalchemy]

Thanks regarding the water - I was thinking on those lines. It should be all right without boiling, I guess, if a good healthy starter is added.

That must be some brew fridge! I've sort of picked up the idea that temp control isn't quite so crucial with cider fermentation - that some of the esters, etc. produced can add to the final product. However, I am going to keep things under control as I don't want to screw up 120 litres.

And on a completely different tack, I have noticed Gervin wine yeast "Varietal D German Strain" which "gives wines with ecxcellent bouquet and which mature quickly; reduces level of malic acid" and "This yeast has two particular characteristics. Firstly it produces an exceptionally fine bouquet and secondly it can metabolise up to 35% of any malic acid present in the must. This makes it very useful when the fruit base of wine may be overly acidic ie apple, gooseberry or rhubarb."

Has anyone tried this in cider? Would it be a good idea?

Simon.

First of all temp is still important in cider as you don't want fusel alcohol so keep it below 21c

secondly why do you want to reduce the leval of the acid? If you do then you will end up with an insipid cider. The main reason for MLF is that it converts the malic acid into the less harsh more rounded Lactic acid but more importantly produces a load of aromatic by products. However the acidity remains.

 

[asd]

I guess I just don't know what I am doing. I will get my coat.

 

[graysalchemy]

No need for that, that is what this forum is for to discuss ideas and hopefully be pointed in the right direction. :thumb: :thumb:

I apologise if my post was abrupt

 

[FuzzySteve]

Just a quick update on this one...

I've been a bit delayed with one thing or another, so I've only just (this morning) managed to get this mixed and into the FV. I've elected to make 53 litres which took approximately 45 litres of water (treated with one campden and left overnight). I then added 8 litres of concentrate which equated to 1252grams/litre and gave an SG of 1.048. No malic or tannin was added as I want to find out how the 'raw' product fares against other supermarket brands. For the record, ASD's calculations are bang-on based upon the above, and mine were pure tripe. Thanks for pointing the error out squire! It otherwise could've turned out very poor indeed!

Initial impressions are that the diluted juice is darker than its supermarket counterparts, and maybe it's just me, but it does seem to have a stronger aroma. Time will tell if this translates into a worthy cider.

 

[oldbloke]

And on a completely different tack, I have noticed Gervin wine yeast "Varietal D German Strain" which "gives wines with ecxcellent bouquet and which mature quickly; reduces level of malic acid" and "This yeast has two particular characteristics. Firstly it produces an exceptionally fine bouquet and secondly it can metabolise up to 35% of any malic acid present in the must. This makes it very useful when the fruit base of wine may be overly acidic ie apple, gooseberry or rhubarb."

Has anyone tried this in cider? Would it be a good idea?

Long time ago, when I was just getting into TC, I tried Gervin D. I did think it gave a slightly more funky cider. No proper side-by-side everything-else-equal tests though.

I currently have an 8way TC test in ferment, Youngs Cider vs Youngs allpurpose red vs Gervin D vs Muntons Gold * straight vs sweetener
All using Suma concentrate and powdered tannin, not going for MLF.
Results won't be in until christmas though

 

[FuzzySteve]

That'd be an interesting result I'm sure Oldbloke. I've never tried anything other than the Gervin and the Youngs Cider, the latter is used in all of my ciders to keep things constant. Once I have a juice I'm happy with, I'll start mixing it up with the yeast and maybe other additions.