Essentials for a good expat Christmas? In short, CIDER!

[StrandedinCanada]

Hey guys,

As the name suggests, there's a few of us Ex Pats 'stranded' up in the Canadian Wilderness. My mate and I are planning the usual Christmas jive - but this year we want to make it a 'strictly British' affair... and what better way to do this, but than with a good old-fashioned Cider extravaganza!

Now, I'm not gonna pretend I have ANY idea of what do do, and (basically) that's where my problem has begun --- there's just SO MUCH information available, with varying ingredients and timescales (etc) that it's all just a little too much for me.

Let me tell you what we've amassed and, perhaps, someone could steer us in the right direction...

On hand:

(2x) 8 Gallon plastic (fermentation?) 'buckets' with lids and stick on thermometers

8 Gallons of fresh pressed Apple Cider... We went down the Cider mill today, and I literally saw apples going in one end, being crushed, pressed, filtered and then bottled at the other end... There's no preservatives or anything and at the moment I just have 8 bottles of apple cider juice sitting in the fridge.


That's all I got. Still need to get the tablets, yeast, and airlocks (etc) over the next day or so


I need some expert advise... Can anyone start me off on a reasonably 'traditional' English recipe which will mature enough to be palatable in time for Crimbo? Looking for a step by step idiots guide as in "On day 1 do X", "Keep checking until X occurs", "Now do X" etc

About all I know I want to do so far is add in some crushed campdens to kill off any wild yeasts, wait a couple of days for that and then add in some yeast nutrient and a proper yeast (type to be determined --- HELP?)... AND THEN I'M LOST...

Like I said, there's just SO much info out there, I've now got a mega headache and a fridge load of apple juice waiting to do something with...

Advice welcome, but 'experienced advice' (as in "I did this and it worked out good") would be very much appreciated.

Thanks and apologies for rambling on...

 

[scott78]

sounds like your on the right track, 1 campden tab/gal. leave it 24hrs then add cider yeast (or white wine if you cant find cider) put lid on and wait.
if your storing inside ,ferment on the cool side 18-20ish and rack off the yeast once the FG is around 1.005.store in another fermenter for another 2 weeks or so until you get FG <1.000.
its then 'done' you can bottle or keg. It will get better with age.
if you can, find out the pH, you want around 3.4 but that can get sorted after fermentation.
hope this helps

 

[alanywiseman.]

I am assuming that you do not have cider apple juice?

If it is just dessert apples you will need to add some tannins and malic acid. The tannins can be added as a powder or 1 VERY strong cup of black tea per gallon. Malic acid go for 1 tsp per gallon.

I have some cider maturing at the moment which has undergo malic-lactic fermentation. This is where the malic acid is converted into lactic acid and other products. This turns the slightly tasteless TC into a more scrumpy type but ML fermentation takes at least a couple of months so you will be pushing it to have it done by Christams but it does produce an excellent cider :thumb:

 

[ScottM]

Sounds like you're onto a winner :thumb:

Just follow the instructions as above. As they are cider apples I think they will be fine for tannins and malic acid. Always add some yeast nutrient with cider though.

 

[ScottM]

I am assuming that you do not have cider apple juice?

It came from the cider mill so I'm guessing it's proper cider apple juice :)

 

[alanywiseman.]

I am assuming that you do not have cider apple juice?

It came from the cider mill so I'm guessing it's proper cider apple juice :)

But do Americans not call apple juice cider and cider 'hard cider'? Is it the same for Canadians?

I am not just being dim :lol: (I hope )

 

[ScottM]

I am assuming that you do not have cider apple juice?

It came from the cider mill so I'm guessing it's proper cider apple juice :)

But do Americans not call apple juice cider and cider 'hard cider'? Is it the same for Canadians?

I am not just being dim :lol: (I hope )

Ooooo really? I didn't know that

 

[StrandedinCanada]

Morning (afternoon) all,

Sincerely, thanks very much for your various replies guys...

As a novelty, the small holding I went to has some pictures of their 1920's mechanical cider press on their website; so you can all see what I mean when I said 'cider'... quite literally apples in, and a dark clear-ish juice out... (I made sure they don't add any preservatives in there that would kill off any yeasts)... The only thing they do is screen it through a UV Light as a sort of 'cold pasturisation' - but was told that any activated yeasts that I add would be all right...

smithsorchard(dot)com/cider_mill.html

I'm gonna add in the Campden's anyways to be sure, to be sure - wait the suggested time and then try to source out some cider yeast to add in the next day or so... I'll be honest, I've never seen cider yeast over here but have heard 'Ale Yeast' is a positive alternative... Thought I note in the post that the suggested yeast is wine yeast... Back to confusion... Suggestions, thoughts, opinions? Remember, I'm looking for 'as authentic and traditional as poss' - just as long as it's ready by christmas... :P

Shopping list today would therefore be:

- Airlock & bung
- Campden tablets
- Yeast Nutrient
- Yeast (maybe)?
- One of those hydrometer things? (Gravity measuring gadget)
- Maybe a PH testing kit???

Any other thoughts?

Thanks for your support guys

 

[ScottM]

By cider.... do you mean apple juice.... or alcoholic beverage though?

I didn't realise that, in America, Cider Pressing is how apple juice is made. Drinkable apple juice is a far cry from the apple juice used to make proper cider. If the company you have got the apple juice from makes it for consumption then you will need to add tannin and malic acid.

 

[StrandedinCanada]

By cider.... do you mean apple juice.... or alcoholic beverage though?

I didn't realise that, in America, Cider Pressing is how apple juice is made. Drinkable apple juice is a far cry from the apple juice used to make proper cider. If the company you have got the apple juice from makes it for consumption then you will need to add tannin and malic acid.

Oh gees.... Confusion hit's once more...

Yea, sorry Scott mate, "cider" in terminology this way is literally just pressed apples into a juice - nothing has been added to them whatsoever... (Well, shouldn't be --- some mass-produced cider's add in preservatives to prevent any fermentation ---- booooo)

In my case, I just want to add in the extras' to bring it up to a good quality British standard :P

So my plan is to still add in campdens - but I'm not doing anything else just yet... Or...????????
So I'm back

 

[ScottM]

Oh gees.... Confusion hit's once more...

Yea, sorry Scott mate, "cider" in terminology this way is literally just pressed apples into a juice - nothing has been added to them whatsoever... (Well, shouldn't be --- some mass-produced cider's add in preservatives to prevent any fermentation ---- booooo)

In my case, I just want to add in the extras' to bring it up to a good quality British standard :P

So my plan is to still add in campdens - but I'm not doing anything else just yet... Or...????????
So I'm back

In that case you will need to add tannin and malic acid.

In the UK the apples used to make Cider (as in alcoholic cider) are different from those to make apple juice. The dessert apples to make apple juice don't contain a lot of tannin or malic acid that the proper cider apples do, so when using this juice to make alcoholic cider these additions are required.

From what you are describing the juice you have attained is that of dessert apples and therefore you need to add tannin and malic :)

 

[Crastney]

there are threads on here about what yeast to use for what purpose, but the search engine fails as yeast is mentioned so darned often that results are meaningless... I'm not sure where the thread is however, here's what I know about yeast.

wild yeasts will ferment, but you've no idea what kind of flavours they will produce, which is why most people stun with CT (Camden Tablet), and then after 24 hours added a cultivated yeast with known properties.

Cider yeast - this will ferment out fully, down to a value on your hydrometer lower than 1.000 (probably around 0.995), and the flavours that it produces are what you require in 'proper' cider. It will be very dry.

wine yeasts will ferment out not quite so fully, and finish around 1.000 depending on type, and flavours will be different, but not unpleasent. not quite as dry.

Champagne yeast, is often used to make cider, it has a higher alcohol tolerence, and will ferment out to dry, but stands having more sugar added, and is also good for priming purposes, to produce sparkle, if you want fizzy cider (more on that nearer the time you come to bottle though)

Ale yeasts ferment out only down to about 1.010 or 1.005, so the drink will be sweeter (less dry), and less alcoholic. tastes will be different, more ale like.
Bread yeast will work, but will taste funky.

so in conclusion; use cider yeast if you can get it, otherwise champagne yeast or wine yeast.

Hope that helps.

 

[ScottM]

there are threads on here about what yeast to use for what purpose, but the search engine fails as yeast is mentioned so darned often that results are meaningless... I'm not sure where the thread is however, here's what I know about yeast.

wild yeasts will ferment, but you've no idea what kind of flavours they will produce, which is why most people stun with CT (Camden Tablet), and then after 24 hours added a cultivated yeast with known properties.

Cider yeast - this will ferment out fully, down to a value on your hydrometer lower than 1.000 (probably around 0.995), and the flavours that it produces are what you require in 'proper' cider. It will be very dry.

wine yeasts will ferment out not quite so fully, and finish around 1.000 depending on type, and flavours will be different, but not unpleasent. not quite as dry.

Champagne yeast, is often used to make cider, it has a higher alcohol tolerence, and will ferment out to dry, but stands having more sugar added, and is also good for priming purposes, to produce sparkle, if you want fizzy cider (more on that nearer the time you come to bottle though)

Ale yeasts ferment out only down to about 1.010 or 1.005, so the drink will be sweeter (less dry), and less alcoholic. tastes will be different, more ale like.
Bread yeast will work, but will taste funky.

so in conclusion; use cider yeast if you can get it, otherwise champagne yeast or wine yeast.

Hope that helps.

Ale yeast will go way past 1.005 when used on cider. The reason it only ferments down to 1.005 with beers/ales is due to the amount of unfermentables in those brews.

Cider obviously has a lot less unfermentables than ales.

 

[StrandedinCanada]

Thanks guys,

This is all very useful stuff

So, I just have a couple of questions with all this ---

I note I've been recommended: "Malic acid go for 1 tsp per gallon. " --- I have 8 US Gallons which is 6.66 Imperial.... So, is the consensus 6 and 2/3 tsps to add?

Now, as for "Tannin" --- suggestions on amount(s) to add? I didn't remember seeing a recommended amount to add in...

And, finally (but probably most importantly) --- WHEN to add these ingredients? Same time as the campdens? Before? After? When I add the yeast and nutrients etc?

Also, whilst I'm on the subject, is there anyway (sort of the recommended amounts you've listed above, to 'test' to see if I have added the correct amounts - as dependent on my apple juice stuff I have?

Apologies, and thanks for the clarification guys




D

 

[ScottM]

Don't worry too much about the quantities as a little more here or there is fine.

Go with 7tsp of malic acid and 3.5tsp of tannin.

Add it just before adding the yeast and yeast nutrient. For the tannin you're going to want to add it to a cup of boiling water. Tannin powder is quite tough stuff to get dissolved properly so it really needs to be done separately. Just pour boiling water into a cup with the tannin in it. Stir till dissolved and all clumps are removed. Pour it into the must and add the malic acid then the nutrient. Give it all a good mix/stir and then add the yeast. Allow the yeast to re-hydrate and then give it another mix.

Job done :)

 

[StrandedinCanada]

Don't worry too much about the quantities as a little more here or there is fine.

Go with 7tsp of malic acid and 3.5tsp of tannin.

Add it just before adding the yeast and yeast nutrient. For the tannin you're going to want to add it to a cup of boiling water. Tannin powder is quite tough stuff to get dissolved properly so it really needs to be done separately. Just pour boiling water into a cup with the tannin in it. Stir till dissolved and all clumps are removed. Pour it into the must and add the malic acid then the nutrient. Give it all a good mix/stir and then add the yeast. Allow the yeast to re-hydrate and then give it another mix.

Job done :)

Brilliant! Thanks so much...OK so the plan for today is gonna be to add in campdens and then wait for tomorrow to get the rest of the stuff (handy becuase the u-brew shop that sells various other yeasts and stuff is closed on mondays) off to the wine place to get campdens though :)

Any suggestions for # of crushed campens to add then?

Thanks



D

 

[pittsy]

hi , half a tablet is fine for your batch , crush it first then just bung it in

 

[scott78]

the thing to remember is cider is down to your own personal taste. not knowing the apples used or the style of cider YOU call UK style( hereford/devon/somerset) i think you should add just the yeast. ferment it out then have a play around once you know what cider you have.

 

[alanywiseman.]

And if you want a clear cider you are going to need to add pectalase. This does not affect the taste, only the look :thumb:

 

[theboytony]

Personally if it is fresh pressed apple juice then I wouldn't bother with the malic acid or tannin, the cider while it may taste a bit young will still taste awesome. I've been making cider for the past 4 years from single variety katy apples, to blends of eaters and bakers and have always had great results :drink:

The problem with malolactic fermentation is that it doesn't always happen so if you go adding malic acid and it doesn't undergo conversion then it could end up to acidic. If you do want to try and guarantee that it happens then you would need to buy a malolactic culture and add it after primary fermentation has completed.

Generally if the juice tastes good then the cider will to, so I would recommend keeping it simple and just go for juice and yeast. I found white labs WLP775 to be a great yeast