T-58 Yeast

[HSD]

Wheat beer is a good thought, thanks!

Done a couple of wheats, each time fermented like crazy made a right mess, must remember to set up a blow off tube for next one

 

[moto748]

Last (and only) time I did a weiss, it was very vigorous too; I used Wyeast 3068. might try the T58 next time, then.

 

[HSD]

Interesting article not completely off topic!

https://byo.com/article/fermenting-belgian-style-beers/

 

[dave_77]

I have a couple of packets that Im planning to use on a Belgian pale. I have been looking for a dry alternative to WLP510 & Wyeast Ardennes, the attenuation and flocculation are really good with these strains with a subtle character.I had read that T-58 can finish a little high sometimes so I have been thinking of pitching T-58 and then adding Nottingham or mangrove jack's west coast yeast maybe 12-24 hours after to help with the attenuation.

 

[darlacat]

I have a couple of packets that Im planning to use on a Belgian pale. I have been looking for a dry alternative to WLP510 & Wyeast Ardennes, the attenuation and flocculation are really good with these strains with a subtle character.I had read that T-58 can finish a little high sometimes so I have been thinking of pitching T-58 and then adding Nottingham or mangrove jack's west coast yeast maybe 12-24 hours after to help with the attenuation.

AA for T58 is listed as 72-78%, so it shouldn't finish too high - especially if you mash low and have sugar/candi syrup in the fermentables. Could try 62c for 45 mins, then 68c for 15 mins? I don't have experience with T58 though (maybe used it once or twice in my early years of brewing), although this thread has piqued my interest!

Makes me wonder why De Ranke are blending T58 with S33 (AA of 68-72%) for XX Bitter (if that is the case) - haven't drunk it in years, but I remember that beer finishing very dry.

 

[dave_77]

AA for T58 is listed as 72-78%, so it shouldn't finish too high - especially if you mash low and have sugar/candi syrup in the fermentables. Could try 62c for 45 mins, then 68c for 15 mins? I don't have experience with T58 though (maybe used it once or twice in my early years of brewing), although this thread has piqued my interest!

Makes me wonder why De Ranke are blending T58 with S33 (AA of 68-72%) for XX Bitter (if that is the case) - haven't drunk it in years, but I remember that beer finishing very dry.

Yes I did think that about the blend . I have had xx bitter a few times this year and it's definitely a dry beer. Like you say maybe the pilsner base with minimal adjuncts and a lower mash temp means that it will finish at the high end of its range anyway.

 

[Sadfield]

Perhaps just to tame the spiciness without losing the esters, and not overpower the hallertau mittelfruh they use, which has a spiciness of its own.u

 

[JonBrew]

I was just reading on a hbt thread that de ranke blend t58 with be256. I know it's all hearsay but I could see the sense to that as it's a super attenuator and supposedly very low ester/non phenolic. Might need to give that mix a go.

 

[darlacat]

I was just reading on a hbt thread that de ranke blend t58 with be256. I know it's all hearsay but I could see the sense to that as it's a super attenuator and supposedly very low ester/non phenolic. Might need to give that mix a go.

Do you have a link to that thread that mentions them blending with BE256? There was a CB&B article on De Ranke using a blend of T58 and S33 - was linked to earlier in this thread. I think one of the previous posters also mentioned that S33 was a likely candidate given Fermentis's product portfolio at the time De Ranke shifted to dry yeast.

 

[JonBrew]

Do you have a link to that thread that mentions them blending with BE256? There was a CB&B article on De Ranke using a blend of T58 and S33 - was linked to earlier in this thread. I think one of the previous posters also mentioned that S33 was a likely candidate given Fermentis's product portfolio at the time De Ranke shifted to dry yeast.

I must have misread. I think it was this thread but looking back now the guy is speculatively suggesting that BE256 is the De Ranke strain, rather than it being blended with something else. Apologies.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...as-anyone-used-it-results.670423/post-8683282
I read a page once where the brewer at De Ranke was 'quoted' as saying it was a Fermentis strain they used but I've never seen anything that confirms which one(s). Pretty sure it was this one: XX Bitter from Brouwerij De Ranke | Most Bitter Belgian Beer (belgiansmaak.com)

 

[Sadfield]

I was just reading on a hbt thread that de ranke blend t58 with be256. I know it's all hearsay but I could see the sense to that as it's a super attenuator and supposedly very low ester/non phenolic. Might need to give that mix a go.

I think you could be onto something here. I tried another tack and googled De Ranke Guldenberg, their excellent Tripel, and found this.

"The house yeast is a 50/50 blend of two fairly common Belgian strains—one offers fruitier esters but flocculates poorly; the other leans spicier but contributes better sedimentation. Together, they offer complexity to complement the hops while flocculating reasonably well."

https://beerandbrewing.com/brewing-a-hoppier-belgian-tripel-with-de-ranke/
BE-256 is possibly from Rochefort and similar to Wlp540.

Once attended a meet the brewer with Nico, but I think that was before I'd started brewing. A missed opportunity.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

I have a packet of T58 in the cupboard. I must have bought it with something in mind, but I can't remember what now!

Can't say I'm planning any more Belgian-style beers in the near future; I've brewed a couple lately.

Would it be any good for any other type of beer?

I brewed an IPA with it, I quite enjoyed it but I got a mixed response from it from others who drank it, some enjoyed it, others didn't. It had quite a peppery character which perhaps didn't go with the rest of the recipe.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It felt like a small pause was in order for this thread, there's been some fairly extreme missing-the-point. Of course I wasn't trying to be jingoistic, I was merely reflecting that many people on the forums use country names as a proxy for underlying biological groupings. I'm all about biology rather than flagwaving.

If you assume all "Belgian" yeasts are biologically the same as Gallone et al's Beer2 genetic grouping (roughly what brewers know as the saison family) then you will have less success than if you recognise that some "Belgian" yeasts come from different biological groups. WLP515 is a classic example, as a "Belgian" yeast that is actually a lager yeast. So the advice in that good BYO article HSD mentioned won't do you much good for WLP515.

Same with T-58 - being biologically closer to some British yeasts, it will respond better to lower temperatures than some of the high temperatures mooted for "Belgian" yeasts that only apply to saison type yeast. You'll notice that I responded to the OP's question about fermentation temps in my very first post here, agreeing with the earlier posters on the subject and not feeling the need to repeat exactly what they said.

to be fair, the link posted by @Northern_Brewer in response to my question contained helpful information for the OP.

Very interested in the biotransformative potential of T58, as suggested by @Northern_Brewer - although that might be a discussion for another thread! Might put a small addition in with wy1318 in an IPA I'm planning - hopped with Chinook, Simcoe and Citra.

Probably no great advantage in blending with 1318 - reading this from Scott Janish "I thought the aroma of the 1318 London Ale III beer was slightly similar [to a Conan strain] but turned down about 20%...the London strain was more of an orange sherbert with a slight lemon/lime thing" it sounds like 1318 is doing something very similar to what I saw with T-58, a slight reduction in overall intensity but more complexity and a definite lime thing (the orange is from the hops he used). So might be more relevant in a blend with something like US-05/WLP001/1056 which doesn't biotransform much.

Yes, it's in the hands of the brewer, and as T58 is POF+ it can produce characteristics common with Belgian beer. Which has prompted another question in my head (apologies if I digress again!) - has anyone experimented with using (the more discernably) British POF+ strains in Belgian (inspired) beers?

T-58 isn't strongly phenolic though.

When White Labs first started talking about their genome results, Lost & Grounded did at least one "Yorkshire Saison" using WLP037 Yorkshire Square which Pete Brown put as one of his beers of the year - I've got a bottle still sat in the cellar, as a backup in case my tube of WLP037 is no good... They mentioned at the time they had done another beer with another yeast, presumably WLP038 Manchester, but that doesn't seem to have seen the light of day - WLP038 seems to be far more modestly POF+, but is probably much more typically British in that regard, the few comments I've seen about it suggest that it could be one of the best homebrew yeasts for "proper" British bitter.

Whereas WLP037 is meant to be a real clove bomb if you let it get away from you, it seems to go really phenolic if it's at all stressed but is far better behaved if you rouse and aerate it a lot. Which of course is what happens in a real square - which could be seen as a technological response to try and manage a slightly wild yeast.

So as a first approximation, one might assume that all British breweries that still do open fermentation, are probably doing so because they have one of these saison-type yeasts. Certainly there's a POF+ strain in the Harvey's yeast, and by all reports Brewlab Sussex 1 can be a bit of a handful like WLP037 if you don't treat it right. And you can definitely pick up a hint of those phenolics in a fresh pint of Harvey's, ditto Sam Smiths. But I'd suspect eg Black Sheep's yeast (the ex-Hardy & Hanson yeast, which Sheep also supply to Elgoods) is also POF+ - and should be fairly easy to scavenge from a pub cask - I tried once but the plate went bad, it had been hanging around for a while.

I had a chat with a brewer there when we visited whilst on the International Air Cadet Exchange. I was in my pre-homebrew days but was a biology undergraduate at the time so asked about the yeast, he mentioned it being their in house strain of S. carlsbergensis. He talked a lot about it but I can’t recall much after 20 years. Although I don’t know I would have remembered the next day, they put three kegs on for us, the picture shows me (right) looking quite wall-eyed.

Hehheh. Thanks for that, it's the first confirmation I've heard from the brewery that they use a lager yeast, which matches up with what we know about the WLP515 DNA. Of course, they're <100km from Heineken who supplied most of Europe with lager yeast in the early 20th century, so it's mebbe not surprising that some might end up in one of the older Belgian breweries.

 

[JonBrew]

Finally got round to using T-58 in a batch the other weekend. Fermentation seems to be complete so thought I would report back with my initial impressions/ findings.

I pitched 1.5 packets (16.5g) rehydrated into 18L of 1080 wort. This was the Brewdog Dogma recipe so very heavy/complex malt bill. I had been dreaming of a Wee Heavy with a Belgian-esque twist - in retrospect, possibly not a great idea for a first use with this yeast. Mashed at 65C.

Fermentation took off very quickly and was absolutely storming along within 8 hours. Started fermentation at 18C; I let the temp free rise and open fermented trying to coax out the ester profile as much as possible. It reached 24C within 48 hours and I pretty much held it there when the temp started to dip.

It's fermented down to 1013 so 83% attenuation. This is higher than I anticipated. Whilst I did mash low there is a lot of speciality malt in the grist but there you go. The thing that's surprised me most at this stage is the lack of noticeable esters or phenols. Having said that, I suspect they are there but they're just lost in the malt and 'young' beeryness of it all at the moment and they may become more noticeable as the flavours meld/settle down over time. There is a notable alcohol prickle/pepperyness on the nose and palette but nothing 'hot' or fusel.

Looking forward to seeing how this one progresses.

 

[chthon]

@Northern Brewer : I brewed a beer that should have been a clone of Kasteel Donker with T-58. I got an attenuation of 84%.

But this evening I even discovered something else. I drank a Struise "Pannepeut". This beer is definitely brewed with T-58. My Kasteel Donker clone tastes and smells exactly the same.

Fwiw, I fermented this beer in open fermentation and insulated it well. I don't have temperature control, but like to let the temperature rise free.

To further continue this: I am now drinking Blue Monk, also by Dolle Brouwers. It tastes the same as both previous beers. These experiences convince me that T-58 is a bit of a one-dimensional yeast. Could also be, of course, that only dark beers taste the same with this yeast.

 

[clib]

To further continue this: I am now drinking Blue Monk, also by Dolle Brouwers. It tastes the same as both previous beers. These experiences convince me that T-58 is a bit of a one-dimensional yeast. Could also be, of course, that only dark beers taste the same with this yeast.

Some yeasts do take over a beer and dominate.