The downfall of the Tory party.

[StJayJay]

The argument being put forward by health unions that we are getting real terms cuts is disingenuous. I work for the NHS in Scotland on the Agenda for Change pay framework (nursing, midwifery, physios, admin etc.- The scales in Scotland are slightly higher than England but very similar structure. )
In 5 years, my own pay (Band 7, which includes likes of ward sisters etc) will have increased by over 52% based on the offer on the table for 2022/23. I don’t get any bonuses, overtime etc but like all pay bands there is automatic pay progression. Someone starting out on Band 5 (staff nurse etc) 5 years ago will have increased their salary by around 57% over that time, Band 6 (senior staff nurses etc) new in post 5 years ago will be 61% better off by now.
People on the top of their bands who don’t want/get promotion don’t fare as well, I’m on the top of my band now so that will taper off.
I note my nursing and midwifery colleagues up here have voted to strike but I think making it about pay is unproductive as it detracts from more pressing issues. All front line staff are facing immense pressure, for a while host of reasons there aren’t enough, we have so many vacancies, many are related to a raft of people who have retired in one big tranche related to pension reforms. The money is there to fund the vacancies but there’s a lack of people (who’d blame them given the doom laden commentary of the NHS) people have left to join agencies but I’d say that’s less of a problem than reported. Covid made sickness absence go through the roof, the additional pressure on staff from covering this has caused burn out, going off sick, vicious circle. Add to that the lack of investment in social care at one end and chaotic primary care at the other causing log jams that are affecting emergency departments and ambulances, it again ramps up the pressure and staff feel it most. Paying us more is not going to resolve that in any way, it’s top to bottom reform of NHS and Social Care but I’ve not seen the political will to do this in 20 years of working for the NHS both sides of the border. I get why the Unions focus on pay, much easier to sloganise but they’re not really helping us out with the real problems.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I understand there’s a major problem with nurses jumping ship to nursing agencies because they pay is better and in a lot of cases they are able to pick and choose their hours.

I have been listening to 5 live over the last few days and the majority of nurses phoning in are saying the same if nurses were paid a decent wage it would stop these nurses leaving the profession altogether as many are and it would also take away the pressure they are under when going into work every day knowing they will be understaffed.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It's all a game the union asks for more than they know the members would accept and the company goes in low and eventually meet in the middle.
Can we also remember it's not all about pay they said this morning the problem is retention there are 100+ thousand vacancies because people are leaving in droves, nurses workloads are horrendous and they regularly work many more hours than they are contracted to at very short notice which they also don't get overtime for.
Imagine what you would do today if your boss said can you do a couple of hours unpaid overtime every day for the next six months because a couple of workers have phoned in sick.

 

[foxy]

That's not true is it? Here's the latest evidence to the contrary...

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-12-09/jacobs-staff-return-to-work-after-winning-new-offer
What are workers supposed to do? Just work in whatever conditions exist and take home whatever pay is offered? We had that before the union's existed. Poverty and exploitation. And now we have food banks everywhere, fuel poverty, homelessness etc in the 5th richest nation in the world and yet striking is considered a crime against humanity. People can't afford to pay their bills so they are deciding to do somethjng about it. It's an inevitable consequence of the situation we are in.

Of course its true, foolish to think otherwise. The share holders are never ever going to be sold short. So where does the money come from? If share holders aren't going to get a return then they go else where. When ever there is a strike and the workers win a pay rise, who is the one who pays? The public.

 

[clib]

Of course its true, foolish to think otherwise. The share holders are never ever going to be sold short. So where does the money come from? If share holders aren't going to get a return then they go else where. When ever there is a strike and the workers win a pay rise, who is the one who pays? The public.

The public pays for everything. Animals and birds have no access to our monetary system.

Workers around the world are being paid subsistence wages while shareholders and CEOs take huge profits. It's offensive to suggest that striking is wrong. It's offensive that people who work full time get paid so little and can't afford to pay rent and bills. When shareholders and senior management live in luxury or relative luxury off the back of their labour.

 

[foxy]

The public pays for everything. Animals and birds have no access to our monetary system.

Workers around the world are being paid subsistence wages while shareholders and CEOs take huge profits. It's offensive to suggest that striking is wrong. It's offensive that people who work full time get paid so little and can't afford to pay rent and bills. When shareholders and senior management live in luxury or relative luxury off the back of their labour.

That is the way of the world and always has been since the end of serfdom. I certainly didn't say striking was wrong, just the consequences are put back onto the workers. Without share holders there wouldn't be jobs. Without senior management running a company efficiently there wouldn't be jobs. I have said this before don't look at share holders as being individuals living the life of luxury. Anyone who has a bank account an insurance policy, pays union dues, has a super fund etc are inadvertently share holders.

 

[clib]

That is the way of the world and always has been since the end of serfdom. I certainly didn't say striking was wrong, just the consequences are put back onto the workers. Without share holders there wouldn't be jobs. Without senior management running a company efficiently there wouldn't be jobs. I have said this before don't look at share holders as being individuals living the life of luxury. Anyone who has a bank account an insurance policy, pays union dues, has a super fund etc are inadvertently share holders.

Of course. But the balance is toward low wages so strikes will happen. Justifiably.

 

[foxy]

Of course. But the balance is toward low wages so strikes will happen. Justifiably.

I understand that, but it is the strikers own comrades who will be footing the bill. Take the NHS who is going to be footing the bill for the rises which the ambo's get and the nurses. I don't know why the gov't doesn't just pay them more and put up the contributions, which they will do anyway.

 

[An Ankoù]

Just watched this with The Wise One and her comment was "Why can't James O'Brien be leader of the Opposition instead of the useless, mealy-mouthed nobody who's there at the moment?" She's spot on.
Would anybody take issue with any of the adjectives used to describe the "current iteration" of the Con Party, Baclay or Sunak? If not, why are their heads not on pikes at the city gates yet?

 

[clib]

I understand that, but it is the strikers own comrades who will be footing the bill. Take the NHS who is going to be footing the bill for the rises which the ambo's get and the nurses. I don't know why the gov't doesn't just pay them more and put up the contributions, which they will do anyway.

To an extent but it's not an argument for allowing real wages to keep falling in key jobs and there are other sources of revenue besides comrades' taxes.

Just watched this with The Wise One and her comment was "Why can't James O'Brien be leader of the Opposition instead of the useless, mealy-mouthed nobody who's there at the moment?"

Two completely different jobs . And James O'Brien isnt currently 20 points ahead in the opinion polls and wouldn't work as a leader of the opposition and he wouldn't do it either. It's an incredibly difficult job that most people with the talent shy away from. We've even got people like David Milliband and Ed Balls talking about making a come back after dodging the difficult years. Starmer went in and turned the party round from where it was and will win the next election. Some credit is due. And appreciation for doing an incredibky difficult job for which you get bad mouthed constantly. The country needs a complete change of direction. Obviously. We should judge these people by what they do rather than what they do or don't say.

 

[An Ankoù]

To an extent but it's not an argument for allowing real wages to keep falling in key jobs and there are other sources of revenue besides comrades' taxes.


Two completely different jobs . And James O'Brien isnt currently 20 points ahead in the opinion polls and wouldn't work as a leader of the opposition and he wouldn't do it either. It's an incredibly difficult job that most people with the talent shy away from. We've even got people like David Milliband and Ed Balls talking about making a come back after dodging the difficult years. Starmer went in and turned the party round from where it was and will win the next election. Some credit is due. And appreciation for doing an incredibky difficult job for which you get bad mouthed constantly. The country needs a complete change of direction. Obviously. We should judge these people by what they do rather than what they do or don't say.

Fair comment. I just think he gives the Govt too easy a ride and he's frightened to mention brexit and the need for freer movement of peoples, which doesn't bode well. Nevertheless, they'll have my vote on the day.

 

[clib]

Fair comment. I just think he gives the Govt too easy a ride and he's frightened to mention brexit and the need for freer movement of peoples, which doesn't bode well. Nevertheless, they'll have my vote on the day.

He walks a tightrope. Whatever he says is twisted and used against him. I have been frustrated with him but i think he's been pretty smart on the whole, he's slowly winning the debate. Softly catchee monkey. Give the arseholes as little ammunition as possible. Don't fall into the Brexit trap. He needs votes from all over. He's getting them. 70% in the recent by election in my constituency.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Two completely different jobs . And James O'Brien isnt currently 20 points ahead in the opinion polls and wouldn't work as a leader of the opposition and he wouldn't do it either. It's an incredibly difficult job that most people with the talent shy away from. We've even got people like David Milliband and Ed Balls talking about making a come back after dodging the difficult years. Starmer went in and turned the party round from where it was and will win the next election. Some credit is due. And appreciation for doing an incredibky difficult job for which you get bad mouthed constantly. The country needs a complete change of direction. Obviously. We should judge these people by what they do rather than what they do or don't say.

Yeah 100% agree with that, I think he's done a great job so far under extremely dificult circumstances, the labour party were in a shocking state when he took over.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I understand that, but it is the strikers own comrades who will be footing the bill. Take the NHS who is going to be footing the bill for the rises which the ambo's get and the nurses. I don't know why the gov't doesn't just pay them more and put up the contributions, which they will do anyway.

Because the government is doing their utmost to utterly destroy the NHS from the inside, so that they can say "it's completely failed" and justify selling it off to their mates.

 

[foxy]

To an extent but it's not an argument for allowing real wages to keep falling in key jobs and there are other sources of revenue besides comrades' taxes.

Well I would like to know the sources where the money will come from.

Because the government is doing their utmost to utterly destroy the NHS from the inside, so that they can say "it's completely failed" and justify selling it off to their mates.

Andy Burnham tried that at Hinchingbrooke hospital outsourcing to his mates. That didn't work

 

[clib]

Well I would like to know the sources where the money will come from.

Well corporations paying minimal tax for starters. Paying minimal wages.

 

[foxy]

Well corporations paying minimal tax for starters. Paying minimal wages.

Well it is hardly the fault of corporations paying minimal tax which are in the guide lines set out by the tax office. Kerry Packer nailed it.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Well it is hardly the fault of corporations paying minimal tax

Selfishness can always be justified as "it's not my fault"

 

[foxy]

Selfishness can always be justified as "it's not my fault"

Do you pay more tax than you are legally bound to? I certainly don't, and I don't expect anyone else would want to, corporations or individuals.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Do you pay more tax than you are legally bound to? I certainly don't, and I don't expect anyone else would want to, corporations or individuals.

Exactly my point.
And yes I do. You may call me a fool for doing so. I call it a conscience.