Another major incident in london

[trueblue]

So you want to force Muslims to do...........

I never said force, it could be a way the Muslim leaders can show they do not regard these people as true Muslims let alone martyrs.

 

[ElvisIsBeer]

Muslim's hate all of this.

front page on the MCB website - http://www.mcb.org.uk/reportit/

http://www.mcb.org.uk/london-bridge-attack-muslim-council-of-britain/

http://www.visitmymosque.org/

Reach out - don't lash out.

 

[Ale]

You've also got to bear in mind that the police were screaming at people to run.

Im talking about where they actually were. The police were not watching them stab people and telling people to run, they were telling people to run to get out of the area while they were trying to find them.

 

[Linalmeemow]

Im talking about where they actually were. The police were not watching them stab people and telling people to run, they were telling people to run to get out of the area while they were trying to find them.

Fair enough. In that case then I don't know why more people didn't dive in, though I'd hazard a guess that the fake bomb vests put them off.

 

[Covrich]

Im talking about where they actually were. The police were not watching them stab people and telling people to run, they were telling people to run to get out of the area while they were trying to find them.

Weren't they wearing albeit fake suicide bomb jackets?

You have to be brave to take on an assailant armed with that with just your fists when they are literally willing to die.

 

[trueblue]

I am not making light of the situation but this guy fleeing but still holding his pint sums up the British spirit.

 

[Covrich]

I am not making light of the situation but this guy fleeing but still holding his pint sums up the British spirit.

I like how his left hand is providing a counter balance so he don't spill any

 

[chub1]

Not vile retribution.

I've said how. Funding for detection, prevention, counter-terrorism, education.

Please enlighten us how pouring money into this will alter things?.
Ok we detect more suspects and watch them,is that correct,this is basically what is happening now? They are being detected now but nothing can be done about it due to the fact that they have not actually done anything illegal.Please tell us what prevention measures you would propose?.Education!, would that be within the muslim schools and mosques,if so how would that be put into operation and by whom?
:nono:

 

[Ale]

Weren't they wearing albeit fake suicide bomb jackets?

You have to be brave to take on an assailant armed with that with just your fists when they are literally willing to die.

I can understand that, but if youre a fit young man in a bar with your wife or girlfriend and they come in stabbing people and with bomb vests on, do you try to stop them stabbing people and setting the bombs off, or do you hope they dont set the bombs off before you have forced your way out of the back door? Would you rather go out a hero or a coward?

There are some reports of people who challenged them, the policeman who tackled one of them, the Sunday express reporter who went to help a lone bouncer and got stabbed, a man who threw bottles at them to get them away from a woman they were stabbing.

And another thought, we should be thankful so few died with these men walking around stabbing people.

 

[simon12]

If religious schools are the problem even if we close them its a generation until it makes a difference. The problem is what the Quran says as interpreted by some, we need public debate on what legitimate interpretations are. Once muslims actually read whats in it most will realise its total BS and walk away. Free copy here http://www.kaskas.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Quran-Abdel-Haleem-Translation-1.pdf print it out if run out of bog roll.

 

[pms67]

You know where the line in the sand should have been drawn?
When the Charlie Hebdo offices were stormed by Islamists because they printed a picture of their prophet.
The very next day every print publication in the civilised world should have printed a front page picture of him too and the muslim community should have been told to bloody get over it!
If they don't want to live by our standards of free speech and expression then go and live in your ancestral homes.
Unfortunately the media, politicians and even top police officers are for the most part apologists and cowards.

I am n a minority that didn't agree with Charlie Hebdo and I certainly wasn't saying "we are all Charlie Hebdo" of course it wS an atrocity but why poke fun at an already unstable group of fanatic lunatics?
The publication went too far in my eyes.

 

[ElvisIsBeer]

Please enlighten us how pouring money into this will alter things?.
Ok we detect more suspects and watch them,is that correct,this is basically what is happening now? They are being detected now but nothing can be done about it due to the fact that they have not actually done anything illegal.Please tell us what prevention measures you would propose?.Education!, would that be within the muslim schools and mosques,if so how would that be put into operation and by whom?
:nono:

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try to detect potential terrorism before it happens?

Are you comfortable with the reductions in funding that have undermined the capacity of intelligence services and the police?

Would you like those cuts to go further, because you don't think that a 10% conversion rate from arrest to conviction is good enough? (that's such a massively unstable variable, by the way, so don't get too excited by it).

We are told that a large number of potential terrorist outrages have been prevented. With more resources do you consider that some of the offences that have been committed might have been prevented? Even one of them? Would that expenditure be worthwhile?

You challenge on prevention measures. This is where it gets difficult, isn't it? You can't prevent ideas, thoughts and conversation. Where you squeeze to catch out the potential terrorist, you also risk giving innocent people an unnecessary taste of police state & government.

Here are some things to consider:

Under Prevent most local authorities developed partnership structures to facilitate the delivery of that strategy, which specified that "wherever possible, the partnership should comprise social services, policing, children’s services,
youth services, UKBA, FE & HE, probation services, schools, prisons, health and others as required by local need."

All areas hit hard by government spending cuts.

While there may be more done to share information and expertise across regions and between local partnerships, if resources are not available, or have to be significantly prioritised, then difficult decisions have to be made at a local level.

It's easy to talk about collaboration and co-ordinated services. If you're working in a school, or a police station, or social services.....this is additional work.....this takes additional time. If your budgets are cut, people are not doing things they should be doing, because they can't. We're starting from scratch in some respects, and while the police can use funding straight away, some LAs are not fully capable of delivering effective joined up services.

SO......

1) Increase funding for Intelligence & Policing.

2) Increase funding to support implementation of Prevent (or similar). Especially in schools, colleges, prisons and in local community settings.

3) Continue the focus on priority areas. Incidentally, by virtue of alphabetical order, Barking & Dagenham is 1st in the list of 25 priority areas.

4) Attract more people from minority ethnic groups into a career in social services, schools, policing and government. At present around 4.6% of police officers are of black or minority ethnicity.

5) Promote real integration at a local level. Hands up who has visited a Mosque? Not me. Maybe I should extend a handshake and see where it leads.

6) Consider sensible changes to law, including penalties.

7) Stop implementing knee-jerk foreign policy, and immediately sack idiots like Boris Johnson who don't understand the concept of diplomacy.

8) Reject insular and isolationist politics and social views. Accept that we are a multi-faith, multi-cultural society. Penalise those who sow seeds of division.

9) Increase aid to developing countries, making sure we know that it is delivered and used appropriately.

I can't think of a tenth item - it is 4:12 am, and I'm knackered.

 

[ElvisIsBeer]

I can understand that, but if youre a fit young man in a bar with your wife or girlfriend and they come in stabbing people and with bomb vests on, do you try to stop them stabbing people and setting the bombs off, or do you hope they dont set the bombs off before you have forced your way out of the back door? Would you rather go out a hero or a coward?

There are some reports of people who challenged them, the policeman who tackled one of them, the Sunday express reporter who went to help a lone bouncer and got stabbed, a man who threw bottles at them to get them away from a woman they were stabbing.

And another thought, we should be thankful so few died with these men walking around stabbing people.

You're making all sorts of assumptions to promote a "have a go hero" mentality.

The police have been promoting a mantra of "Run Hide Tell". In the immediate aftermath people were being told to leave.

In the moment, who knows what you or anyone else would do? How can anyone be 100% sure you wouldn't do exactly what the police have advised?

We're only human. It's natural to be scared and panicky.

Calling people involved in these awful situations 'cowards' is out of order.

 

[shepp]

I am n a minority that didn't agree with Charlie Hebdo and I certainly wasn't saying "we are all Charlie Hebdo" of course it wS an atrocity but why poke fun at an already unstable group of fanatic lunatics?
The publication went too far in my eyes.

Because to tolerate intolerance is cowardice.
And you pay for it in the long run.

 

[chub1]

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try to detect potential terrorism before it happens?

Are you comfortable with the reductions in funding that have undermined the capacity of intelligence services and the police?

Would you like those cuts to go further, because you don't think that a 10% conversion rate from arrest to conviction is good enough? (that's such a massively unstable variable, by the way, so don't get too excited by it).

We are told that a large number of potential terrorist outrages have been prevented. With more resources do you consider that some of the offences that have been committed might have been prevented? Even one of them? Would that expenditure be worthwhile?

You challenge on prevention measures. This is where it gets difficult, isn't it? You can't prevent ideas, thoughts and conversation. Where you squeeze to catch out the potential terrorist, you also risk giving innocent people an unnecessary taste of police state & government.

Here are some things to consider:

Under Prevent most local authorities developed partnership structures to facilitate the delivery of that strategy, which specified that "wherever possible, the partnership should comprise social services, policing, children’s services,
youth services, UKBA, FE & HE, probation services, schools, prisons, health and others as required by local need."

All areas hit hard by government spending cuts.

While there may be more done to share information and expertise across regions and between local partnerships, if resources are not available, or have to be significantly prioritised, then difficult decisions have to be made at a local level.

It's easy to talk about collaboration and co-ordinated services. If you're working in a school, or a police station, or social services.....this is additional work.....this takes additional time. If your budgets are cut, people are not doing things they should be doing, because they can't. We're starting from scratch in some respects, and while the police can use funding straight away, some LAs are not fully capable of delivering effective joined up services.

SO......

1) Increase funding for Intelligence & Policing.

2) Increase funding to support implementation of Prevent (or similar). Especially in schools, colleges, prisons and in local community settings.

3) Continue the focus on priority areas. Incidentally, by virtue of alphabetical order, Barking & Dagenham is 1st in the list of 25 priority areas.

4) Attract more people from minority ethnic groups into a career in social services, schools, policing and government. At present around 4.6% of police officers are of black or minority ethnicity.

5) Promote real integration at a local level. Hands up who has visited a Mosque? Not me. Maybe I should extend a handshake and see where it leads.

6) Consider sensible changes to law, including penalties.

7) Stop implementing knee-jerk foreign policy, and immediately sack idiots like Boris Johnson who don't understand the concept of diplomacy.

8) Reject insular and isolationist politics and social views. Accept that we are a multi-faith, multi-cultural society. Penalise those who sow seeds of division.

9) Increase aid to developing countries, making sure we know that it is delivered and used appropriately.

I can't think of a tenth item - it is 4:12 am, and I'm knackered.

:wha:

 

[geetee]

Weren't they wearing albeit fake suicide bomb jackets?

You have to be brave to take on an assailant armed with that with just your fists when they are literally willing to die.

One unarmed police officer did just to protect people and he is critically ill in hospital!

 

[Ale]

You're making all sorts of assumptions to promote a "have a go hero" mentality.

The police have been promoting a mantra of "Run Hide Tell". In the immediate aftermath people were being told to leave.

In the moment, who knows what you or anyone else would do? How can anyone be 100% sure you wouldn't do exactly what the police have advised?

We're only human. It's natural to be scared and panicky.

Calling people involved in these awful situations 'cowards' is out of order.

Didnt mean to insult other people. I was referring to how I would feel about myself. I've had a couple of incidences over the years where I have in all honesty surprised myself how well I stayed calm and dealt with situations that could have been nasty.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Again the authorities knew the 3 men and had also been warned that one of the attackers had become more extreme over the past two years.

Two people have also claimed they had warned the police about the behaviour of one of the attackers.
Speaking to the BBC's Asian Network, an unnamed man said one of the attackers had become more extreme over the past two years.

'I did my bit'

"We spoke about a particular attack that happened and, like most radicals, he had a justification for anything - everything and anything.
"And that day I realised that I need to contact the authorities," he said.
He said no action was taken.
"I did my bit... but the authorities didn't do their bit".

London attack: Police 'know identities of killers'

Police investigating Saturday night's terror attack in London say they know the identity of the three attackers who killed seven people and injured 48.
The Met Police said their names would be released "as soon as operationally possible" as officers work to establish if they were part of a wider network.
They were shot by police after driving into pedestrians on London Bridge and stabbing people in Borough Market.
Officers searched two addresses in east London on Monday morning.
Police said a "number of people" had been detained following the raids, in Newham and Barking.

It comes after 12 people were arrested in Barking on Sunday following raids at a flat - believed to be the home of one of the attackers. A 55-year-old man has since been released without charge.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick said a "huge amount" of forensic material and evidence had been seized from the van and police raids.
She told BBC Breakfast the investigation was moving very quickly and the priority now was to establish if anybody else was involved in the plot.
The so-called Islamic State group has claimed responsibility for the attack.

The first victim of the attack has been named as Canadian national Chrissy Archibald.
A statement from her family said she had worked in a homeless shelter until she moved to Europe to be with her fiancé.
A French national was also killed in the attack, according to foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian

London Bridge rail and Tube stations both reopened for entry and exit early on Monday morning, after National Rail said the police cordons in the area of the attack had been lifted earlier than expected.
The bridge and surrounding roads have also reopened.

Two people have also claimed they had warned the police about the behaviour of one of the attackers.
Speaking to the BBC's Asian Network, an unnamed man said one of the attackers had become more extreme over the past two years.

'I did my bit'

"We spoke about a particular attack that happened and, like most radicals, he had a justification for anything - everything and anything.
"And that day I realised that I need to contact the authorities," he said.
He said no action was taken.
"I did my bit... but the authorities didn't do their bit".

Speaking on Sunday, Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said 36 people were in hospital with a "range of injuries" and 21 were in a critical condition.
Four police officers were among those injured, two of them seriously.
The Met said one officer received stitches to a head injury and another was received injuries to his arm.
An off-duty officer, who was one of the first on the scene, remains in a serious condition.

Foreign nationals

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed four of the country's nationals had been caught up in the attack.
Two, Candice Hedge from Brisbane and Andrew Morrison from Darwin, are among the injured after both were stabbed.
Seven French nationals were injured in the attack, including four with serious injuries, while one French national is still missing

Among other developments:

Prime Minister Theresa May will chair a meeting of the government's emergency committee Cobra on Monday morning
A vigil will be held later near London Bridge to remember the victims
There will also be a minute's silence on Tuesday at 11:00 BST in memory of those who lost their lives and all those affected by the attacks
The Metropolitan Police has set up a casualty bureau on 0800 096 1233 and 020 7158 0197 for people concerned about friends or relatives
Police say the attack began at 21:58 BST on Saturday, when a white Renault van drove onto London Bridge from the north side.

Eyewitnesses described it travelling at high speed, hitting pedestrians, before crashing close to the Barrowboy and Banker pub.
The van had recently been hired by one of the attackers, Mr Rowley said.
It is the third terror attack in the UK in three months, following the car and knife attack on Westminster Bridge in March, in which five people were killed, and the Manchester bombing less than two weeks ago, in which 22 people were killed.
Prime Minister Theresa May condemned the attack, saying it was "time to say enough is enough" and end the UK's "tolerance" of extremism.

She said full campaigning would resume on Monday after most political parties suspended general election campaigning on Sunday.
She confirmed Thursday's election would go ahead as planned.
In a speech, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn backed the police to use "whatever force is necessary" to save lives.

Dominic Casciani, BBC home affairs correspondent

With three attacks in three months, terrorism against soft targets is beginning to feel, to some people, like the new normal.
The brutal reality is that this kind of threat is absolutely typical of what jihadists sought to achieve in all their attacks across Europe.
Since 2013 security services in the UK have foiled 18 plots. A large proportion of those have involved suspects who set out to commit acts of violence similar to the attacks on Westminster Bridge and London Bridge.
Plans to use bombs, such as at Manchester Arena, are rarer because plotters need to have the technical skills for such an appalling attack - but attacking people with cars and knives is far easier and has long been encouraged by so-called Islamic State and other jihadists.
The aim of the three attackers last night is abundantly clear - not only did they want to kill, but they wanted to lose their own lives.
They would have known full well that attacking people in the street would draw armed police in their direction and the fake bomb belts they were wearing would, in their own warped minds, hasten their demise.

BBC News.

 

[chub1]

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try to detect potential terrorism before it happens?

Are you comfortable with the reductions in funding that have undermined the capacity of intelligence services and the police?

Would you like those cuts to go further, because you don't think that a 10% conversion rate from arrest to conviction is good enough? (that's such a massively unstable variable, by the way, so don't get too excited by it).

We are told that a large number of potential terrorist outrages have been prevented. With more resources do you consider that some of the offences that have been committed might have been prevented? Even one of them? Would that expenditure be worthwhile?

You challenge on prevention measures. This is where it gets difficult, isn't it? You can't prevent ideas, thoughts and conversation. Where you squeeze to catch out the potential terrorist, you also risk giving innocent people an unnecessary taste of police state & government.

Here are some things to consider:

Under Prevent most local authorities developed partnership structures to facilitate the delivery of that strategy, which specified that "wherever possible, the partnership should comprise social services, policing, children’s services,
youth services, UKBA, FE & HE, probation services, schools, prisons, health and others as required by local need."

All areas hit hard by government spending cuts.

While there may be more done to share information and expertise across regions and between local partnerships, if resources are not available, or have to be significantly prioritised, then difficult decisions have to be made at a local level.

It's easy to talk about collaboration and co-ordinated services. If you're working in a school, or a police station, or social services.....this is additional work.....this takes additional time. If your budgets are cut, people are not doing things they should be doing, because they can't. We're starting from scratch in some respects, and while the police can use funding straight away, some LAs are not fully capable of delivering effective joined up services.

SO......

1) Increase funding for Intelligence & Policing.

2) Increase funding to support implementation of Prevent (or similar). Especially in schools, colleges, prisons and in local community settings.

3) Continue the focus on priority areas. Incidentally, by virtue of alphabetical order, Barking & Dagenham is 1st in the list of 25 priority areas.

4) Attract more people from minority ethnic groups into a career in social services, schools, policing and government. At present around 4.6% of police officers are of black or minority ethnicity.

5) Promote real integration at a local level. Hands up who has visited a Mosque? Not me. Maybe I should extend a handshake and see where it leads.

6) Consider sensible changes to law, including penalties.

7) Stop implementing knee-jerk foreign policy, and immediately sack idiots like Boris Johnson who don't understand the concept of diplomacy.

8) Reject insular and isolationist politics and social views. Accept that we are a multi-faith, multi-cultural society. Penalise those who sow seeds of division.

9) Increase aid to developing countries, making sure we know that it is delivered and used appropriately.

I can't think of a tenth item - it is 4:12 am, and I'm knackered.

Again
:wha:
Promote real integration at local level!,huh,most of the ethnic groups are not interested,they want to stay within their own groups.
We have a typical example here where i live.We have the biggest community of South Korean's anywhere outside of that country.
They are taking over the whole area bit by bit,shops and houses,including estate agents just for them.
They basically don't want to integrate.When they first started arriving in numbers the first thing they wanted was for the council or lottery funds to supply a community hall(just for them) as they felt isolated.I'm not saying they are bad people but just showing that smaller ethnic groups do not want to integrate but wish to group themselves together in their own communities.
Pour yet more money into developing countries:lol: with the aim of what? Don't we already do just that. I think we should damn well cut back on all of it and spend some proper money in this country.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

We have a typical example here where i live.We have the biggest community of South Korean's anywhere outside of that country.
They are taking over the whole area bit by bit,shops and houses,including estate agents just for them.
They basically don't want to integrate.When they first started arriving in numbers the first thing they wanted was for the council or lottery funds to supply a community hall (just for them) as they felt isolated.I'm not

When i drive into Preston there is a place similar to the one you describe the problem is if they do not want to integrate how do you encourage them?

.