Message Board Brewing Competition announcement thread.

[MickDundee]

That seems a lot more simplistic! :lol: Only possible problem, how would we know who the winner was? I know we will be able to trust people to be honest but I wouldn't like to take the risk if it can be avoided.

Username ms in a sealed envelope to be opened after judging?

 

[dan125]

You've raised a really good point, last thing we'd want is people feeling the results were biased against them. I'd imagine the vast majority would want feedback tho. How about a process where by all entry forms are submitted by PM to one of more people, the entrant is then provided a number to send with their brew so the judge knows nothing of who has submitted the entry? Then the judge could send all feedback to whoever collected the entry forms and they could then forward on the feedback?

On that note, I'd also suggest the entry form doesn't disclose how the brew was made so we can't be biased against kits, extract or AG.

I've been giving the entry form some thought, and to be honest, I'm not sure if its an unnecessary level of paperwork.
I'm not trying to get out of doing it, and would be happy to help with something else if we don't need it, but if its gonna be anonymous than the only info going on it will be the beer name and maybe the style/date. Wouldn't it keep everything simpler if this was included on the feedback/judging form then participants could submit these and there'd be one less form to deal with???

 

[Soton]

I think monthly might work for a simple reason. If - purely as an example - the categories were wheat beer, stout & porter, IPA, saison, Irish/Scottish ales, British bitters, Belgian ales, Double IPA, lager, barleywine, brown ales and experimental ales, I'd probably only enter half of the categories. There are certain types of beers I'm not interested in drinking, so I wouldn't make one. If the competition is quarterly, I might go 18 months without a category that I'm interested in!

I'm sure I'm not alone.

While IPA, stout and lager will probably see big fields, some of the others will see a smaller number of entries, but I'd rather see how my saisons fare against a few other good ones than have a stylised IPA lost in a sea of others based upon the judges' hop preferences.

I doubt anyone will enter every month, because most people only brew between four and six styles.

That makes sense, its not like you have to enter a beer every month, and most people won't want to enter every month, so as recurring competition it would more likely work better that way
Those of you who love to brew your own new recipes and and would like some sort of feed back could always do short brews and if they feel its good enough to enter could get a bit of constructive feed back on how there new brew stacked up against the rest of the entries that month

 

[DoctorMick]

I've been giving the entry form some thought, and to be honest, I'm not sure if its an unnecessary level of paperwork.
I'm not trying to get out of doing it, and would be happy to help with something else if we don't need it, but if its gonna be anonymous than the only info going on it will be the beer name and maybe the style/date. Wouldn't it keep everything simpler if this was included on the feedback/judging form then participants could submit these and there'd be one less form to deal with???

That sounds fair enough, if everyone is happy enough with that I don't mind there not being an entry form, we can just stipulate the mandatory information that needs to be submitted with the entry.

 

[jceg316]

Hey everyone, I've been working on a set of rules. Consider these the first draft. It's assumed there will be a sub forum for the competition and some threads only open to forum members (for example, where judges give out their postal address). I think this is a good basis to work from. Would be good to hear if you think I've missed anything, and please ask if something isn't clear, I'll be happy to explain. This is copied and pasted from work so the formatting may seem a bit weird.

Participants
• All entries have to be submitted by the last day of the calendar month. This means all entries have to be with the judge on this date. Any which arrive after this date will not get included in the competition.
• Winners will be announced two weeks after or earlier on the Homebrew Forum.
• All entrees must be in either 330ml bottles or 500ml bottles. Each bottle must have an attached label with:
o The brewers name
o Forum alias
o Name of beer
o Style
o ABV%
o It’s not necessary, but the participant may include any other information such as IBU, OG, FG etc.
• Participants must submit three bottles of their beer. Each bottle must be labelled as above.
• Participants can only enter one beer per competition.
• Participants can only win up to three competitions in a row. If they win three competitions in a row, they may enter a fourth to get feedback on their beer, but cannot win. The fifth competition they are allowed to compete again.
• Any bottles sent in the post is at the participants’ risk.
• Any costs incurred from creating, posting or packaging the beer is the responsibility of the participant.
• Participants must have active accounts on http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/.
• The winner is at the discretion of the judge and their word is final.
• Winner will go down in the Homebrew Forum Hall of Fame. There may be sponsored prizes as well however this isn’t guaranteed.
• Unless otherwise stated, all recipes must be original and the participants’ own work.
• Beers can be all grain, partial or extract. Submitting a kit will not count as original work.
• Winning beers may require their recipe submitted online.
• There is no fee for entering the competition and no money should change hands between The Homebrew Forum, the judge, or any third party in relation to entering the competition.
• Any other notes which will help the judge make the most out of an entry may be included. This could be details on the right temperature to drink it at, the correct glass to pour it in etc.

Judges
• Beers must be judged within 2 weeks of the closing date.
• Every entry needs to have feedback provided. This should be constructive and positive.
• Any beers that arrive after the closing date cannot enter the competition. Judges can provide feedback if they wish, but cannot award a late entrant a prize.
• Artwork will not score extra points, unless specified in the competition beforehand.
• If a bottle is broken in the post, or on opening the bottle gushes, it is up to the judges’ discretion whether to enter it into the competition.
• The named judge for that competition is responsible for judging and providing feedback. They can ask for help from friends or other forum members to taste all the beers, however it’s their responsibility ultimately that a winner is chosen and feedback is sent.
• Entrants must be judged fairly against competition style guidelines, along with any extra rules the specified by the competition. No other factors can influence decisions.
• Judges must give a UK address to participants which can accept parcels before the judging month begins. This address will be made public to all forum members.

 

[strange-steve]

I think that looks pretty good, though I have a few thoughts.

Each bottle must have an attached label with:
o The brewers name
o Forum alias
o Name of beer
o Style
o ABV%
o It’s not necessary, but the participant may include any other information such as IBU, OG, FG etc.

Maybe as mentioned above, all this info, other than beer name, should be in a sealed envelope which is to be opened only after judging is complete to avoid any bias.

Participants must submit three bottles of their beer.

I think one is enough, even if you have 2 or 3 judges, only a small amount should be required to properly assess a beer.

Unless otherwise stated, all recipes must be original and the participants’ own work.
• Beers can be all grain, partial or extract. Submitting a kit will not count as original work.

Not sure about this, personally I don't think kits should be excluded. Also lots of people use recipes from books, online, clones etc. Should they be disqualified?

Any other notes which will help the judge make the most out of an entry may be included. This could be details on the right temperature to drink it at, the correct glass to pour it in etc.

Not sure about this either, in BJCP comps the judges have no additional info about the beers, not even a recipe. The only styles where any info is given are the specialty ingredients such as flavourings or alternative fermentables.

 

[MickDundee]

I'm a bit uneasy about the judge's address being posted on a public forum. We would either need to ensure that the competitions forum can not be accessed by non-members or circulate the address by PM to those who have confirmed they wish to enter.

 

[The Idiot]

The simple way to do it has already been mentioned, via a dedicated forum section. Members can request an ID Number if they're going to enter, and that is provided along with the details of where to send the beer (people won't want their addresses to be seen in public, even by forum members - some of us must be mentalists, surely? - so there has to be an email anyway). When the beer is entered, the sender simply enters the supplied ID number.

As we're just doing this for fun, I don't see why there can't be a winner for kits, extract and AG, and maybe an overall champ? I also think winners should supply their recipes or kit adaptions as a point of interest.

Also, I don't think limiting the times someone can win is a good idea. With different styles and judges, you'd have to be one hell of a good brewer to keep winning, and if you are, then kudos to you. Plus, I doubt even the most keen brewers will enter every category.

Finally, I think the styles should only be used as guidelines, filtering out any clearly off-style entries, but variations and experimentations that adhere to the core of a style should be welcomed. After all, it's just a bit of fun!

 

[DoctorMick]

Absolutely cracking initial set of rules @jceg316.

I agree with most of the comments above although I think 2 bottles should be submitted just in case all judges can't get together on the same day. As we go through a few iterations we can work out if this can be tweaked.

Definitely agree that kits should be included, along with clones (they're rarely like the real thing anyway and if someone does manage to nail one then hats off to them). The judges shouldn't be made aware of how the brew was made so if a kit wins so be it and we could definitely announce the top kit, top extract and top AG. I'd like to see winners reveal their recipes but I think that should be optional.

In the judges section I think we should add that the entries must be judged by at least 2 people.

 

[Kman]

I'd definitely be interested

 

[strange-steve]

I've taken a crack at the feedback form which is to be returned to the entrant. Drive link HERE. This is a .doc file so it can be downloaded, edited and emailed or an even easier method is to just copy and paste the text onto the forum in a PM then edit it there.
This is how it looks when pasted:

Brewing Competition Feedback Sheet

Beer Name/Number:

Beer Subcategory:

Aroma Score: /12

Comments:

Appearance Score: /3

Comments:

Flavour Score: /20

Comments:

Mouthfeel Score: /5

Comments:

Overall Impression Score: /10

Comments:

Total Score: /50

 

[DoctorMick]

I've taken a crack at the feedback form which is to be returned to the entrant. Drive link HERE. This is a .doc file so it can be downloaded, edited and emailed or an even easier method is to just copy and paste the text onto the forum in a PM then edit it there.
This is how it looks when pasted:

Brewing Competition Feedback Sheet

Beer Name/Number:

Beer Subcategory:

Aroma Score: /12

Comments:

Appearance Score: /3

Comments:

Flavour Score: /20

Comments:

Mouthfeel Score: /5

Comments:

Overall Impression Score: /10

Comments:

Total Score: /50

Are people likely to get upset/disheartened if they see the score? Would just returning comments be more sensitive? If people are happy to receive the score then that's great I just think I'd throw a tantrum if I got anything less than a 5! :lol:

 

[The Idiot]

Right, here's a suggested definition of styles that people can pick over. I've tried to keep them generic and to work as guidelines rather than hard and fast judging criteria. I think because of the wide range of beers that can fit into some of the categories that any tight definitions will just become stumbling blocks for many, especially newer brewers.

Writing them up did highlight a few things for me.

The first is that Mild and Brown Ale are very similar (okay, calm down until I've finished) and as someone who is old enough to remember when both were fashionable (along with Babycham), I'm buggered if I could definitively decide whether a beer was one or the other. Also, do enough people brew Milds and Brown Ales for them not to be lumped together?

The second is that Lagers and Belgian ales do cover so many different styles that both could be confusing. They could be split into Light Lagers and Dark/Malty lagers. Belgian Ales could also be split into Trappist/Abbey ales and Belgian ales (Strong, Blond and Pale) which would require Belgian Pale Ales being moved from the Pale Ale category.

The third is that we have no 'experimental' beers section. Okay, you can experiment in every style if you like, but if the guidelines are used for general guidance, it does tend to push people into a definable style, which is the point. We really could do with a maverick round for everyone to produce something different.

Well, with that said, here's the general style guidelines. I've done them in the order of the proposed calendar.

HBF Competition Styles Guidelines

Styles for the HBF Brewing Competition are general and encompass a number of sub-styles. As such, some variations from the following will exist. However, submitted beers should always adhere to the core principles of the style.

IPA
(Includes British IPA, American IPA, Black/Brown IPA, Rye IPA, Speciality IPAs. Does not include Double IPAs)
IPAs should have an OG of between 1.050 and 1.070 and an IBU of 40+. Beers should exhibit a hop-forward flavour/aroma typically (but not limited to) using spicy or citric hops. IPAs should be drier with a light to medium body. British IPAs can exhibit fruitier malt flavours. IPAs should be light in colour (Black and Brown variants accepted). Darker IPAs should not have a burned or astringent flavour but should be balanced with enhanced malt character.

Pale Ale
(Includes Pale Ale, Golden Ale, Blonde Ales, Belgian Pale Ales. Does not include IPAs or Double IPAs)
Pale Ales should have an OG of between 1.035 and 1.055 and 20-50 IBUs. Beers should exhibit a medium hop flavour/aroma with hops of any type, and malt should be medium and balanced. Some degree of fruitiness is acceptable. Pale Ales should be drier with a light to medium body. They should be light in colour.

Wheat Beer
(Includes Weissbier, Dunkel Weissbier, American Wheat Beer, Witbier. Does not include other styles with lower percentages of wheat, Saisons or Wild/Lambic/Sour brews including Berliner Weisse)
Wheat beers should have an OG of between 1.040 and 1.055 (exceptions exist such as Weizenbock which is generally 1.060-1.090) and 5-30 IBUs. American What Beers may have higher IBUs. Wheat Beers typically exhibit flavour/aroma created by yeast and fermentation processes. Malt intensity can be enhanced via decoctions or other methods. Hops are usually noble and in the background (American Wheats aside). Some degree of fruit or spice tones is acceptable, as is tartness, sourness and sharpness, dependent upon the style. Wheat beers should be dry with higher levels of carbonation.

Stout/Porter
(Includes Sweet Stout, Dry Stout, Oatmeal Stout, English Porter and variations of these such as Chocolate, Coffee, etc.. Does not include Imperial Stout or Baltic Porter)
Stouts/Porters should have an OG of between 1.040 and 1.065 and 20-50 IBUs. Stouts/Porters typically exhibit a malt based flavour/aroma with a roasted element more prominent in stouts and a bready/biscuit quality in porters. Hop intensity is generally low to medium, although some use higher amounts to balance the roast elements. Stouts/Porters range from sweet to dry, have medium to full body, and generally have lower levels of carbonation.

Double IPA
(Does not include IPAs as identified in the HBF IPA style guidelines)
Double IPAs should have an OG of between 1.065and 1.090 and an IBU of 60+. Beers should exhibit a hop-forward flavour/aroma typically (but not limited to) using spicy or citric hops. Double IPAs should be drier with a light to medium body. A degree of alcohol warmth is acceptable, but beers should balance the additional strength and hop forwardness with drinkability. If a Double IPA needs to be sipped, it is not a balanced DIPA!

Belgian Ale
(Includes Trappist and Abbey Ales, Biere de Garde and Belgian Strong Ales. Does not include Belgian Pale Ales, Witbier or Saisons)
Trappist and Abbey Ales ate typically Singles (1.045-1.055),Dubbels (1.050-1.075) and Tripels (1.070-1.085), with low IBUs of around 20-40. Flavours/aromas vary but are usually complex malt with overtones introduced by the yeast and fermentation process. Adjuncts such as Candi Sugar are often used, but this is fermented out to add alcohol warmth and fruity (raisins and plums) backnotes. Clove or pepper hints are also acceptable. Trappist ales are typically medium to full bodied and medium to high in carbonation. Strong Ales are typically 1.060 to 1.090, again with low IBUs of 15-35. Spicy hops are typically used to balance malt; while sweetish variants are available, many are medium to dry. Fruity esters are common. Biere de Garde is typically 1.060 to 1.080, and shares many of the flavours/aromas typical of other Belgian Ales. However, it is lagered to deliver a cleaner taste and lighter body with medium to high carbonation.

Bitter
(Includes Bitter, Best Bitter and Strong Bitter. Does not include beers as identified in the HBF IPA or Pale Ale style guidelines)
Bitters are typically 1.030-1.050, although strong bitters do run to 1.060, with IBUs of around 30-60. Flavours/aromas should have a degree of hop bitterness, but this should not override the malt character. Typical hop choices are earthy or spicy variants. Bready and biscuit tones are acceptable, as is a floral hopiness. Bitter should be light to medium bodied, and should typically be easy to drink, or ‘sessionable’. Caronation is low.

Mild
(Includes Mild and Dark Mild. Does not include Brown Porter, Bitter or Brown Ales of any type as identified in the HBF Brown Ale style guidelines)
Traditional Milds are low in alcohol, with OGs of between 1.030 and 1.040, although variants do exist up to 1.060. The flavour is malt-based with a degree of moderate bitterness. IBUs are low, typically 10-20. In some milds, especially darker versions, a small degree of roasted or toast-like flavour is acceptable. Carbonation is traditionally low.

Saison
(Includes Saisons, but not Brett-based Saisons or other beers made with sour wild yeasts)
Saisons should have an OG of between 1.040 and 1.065 for traditional styles, although modern variants can go up to 1.080. IBUs of 20-50 are typical. Hop additions should be used to balance any malt flavour. Saisons should be dry and well attenuated with a light body. Flavours typically come from yeast, although many saisons are flavoured with spices, fruit, herbs, vegetables, etc.. However, additional adjuncts should only enhance with background flavours and must not dominate. Saisons are highly carbonated.

Lager
(Includes all lagers, including lager-based beers which have not been ‘lagered’ as a full fermentation and condition process. Does not include any other beers which might use Pilsner malt but are covered in other HBF Compeition style definitions)
Lagers typically have an OG of between 1.040 and 1.060 and an IBU of up to 40. However, some derivations such as Bock will achieve OGs of 1.080. Lighter lagers typically have a well balanced malt profile, rounded and smooth, with minimal bitterness. Hop notes, usually spicy, should be balanced and in the background. Beers should be clean and well attenuated, and whilst many lager vary between sweet and dry, they should not exhibit extremes in body. Dark lagers exhibit a more malt-forward taste, but retain a clean and crisp finish. Lagers are typically light bodied with medium to high carbonation. The lagering process is not essential, but care should be taken to minimise the impact of yeasts on non-lagered lagers!

Imperial Stout
(Includes Imperial Stout and Baltic Porter. Does not include Stouts/Porters as identified in the HBF Stout/Porter style guidelines)
Imperial Stouts and Baltic Porters should have an OG of between 1.065 and 1.115 and 20-50 IBUs. Imperial Stouts typically exhibit a deep and complex malt based flavour/aroma. Roasted, fruity and warm alcohol tastes are usual. Some degree of burned malt is acceptable if balanced. Hop intensity varies but should balance the roast elements. Full bodied, and even chewy! Baltic Porters are smoother and less roasty than Imperial stouts, but should have good malt complexity. Biscuity or fruity overtones are acceptable. Both have lower levels of carbonation.

Brown Ale
(Includes Newcastle Brown Ale, Southern Brown Ale, Nut Brown Ale and American Brown. Does not include Brown Porter or Brown IPAs)
Brown Ale can have an OG of between 1.040 and 1.060, with strengths increasing from Southern, through Newcastle, with American at the higher end. The flavour is malt-based with a degree of caramel, toffee or even chocolate sweetness, although some bitterness is acceptable. IBUs are low, usually around 20-30, although American Browns using US Hops do go up to 60 IBUs. Body is usually medium to light.

Barleywine
(Includes English and American Barleywines)
Barleywiness can have an OG of between 1.080 and 1.120, and between 40 and 80 IBUs. Hop additions serve to balance the malt content. The flavour is dominated by malt and can be rich and complex with elements of caramel, toffee, treacle and fruitiness. Depth of flavour increases with aging. Some degree of alcohol warmth is expected. Body is full, and sipping is general accepted as the way to drink these beers.

Lambic/Sour
(Includes Bretts and Brett-based Saisons , wild yeast beers, Lambics, Berliner Weisses, Oud Bruin, Gueze, etc.. Does not include Saisons or Wheat Beers as identified in the as identified in the HBF Saison or Wheat Beer style guidelines)
Sours can have an OG of between 1.020 and 1.065, with Berliner Weisse beers at the lower end. IBUs of up to 20 are typical. The flavour generally comes from the yeasts, although some styles do have a degree of maltiness. Flavours typical of sours range from fruits and spices through to sweaty horse and barnyard funk. However, these flavours should not be too dominant. Sour ales are usually tart and slightly acidic, dry with medium to high carbonation. Some styles may be sweetened with fruit syrup when poured to offset the sourness. If this is the case then a fruit syrup should be included but not added to the bottle.

Scottish Ale
(Includes Scottish Light, Scottish Heavy , Scottish Export and Wee Heavy)
Scottish Ale can have an OG of between 1.030 and 1.065, with Light being 1.030-1.040, Heavy being 1.035 to 1.050 and Export being 1.045 to 1.065. The flavour is malt-based, with a degree of sweetness and caramel. IBUs are low, usually under 20 or 30 for Export, with hops used to balance the malt only. Scottish Ales are typically medium bodied with low to medium carbonation. Wee Heavy has an OG of 1.070 to 1.115 and IBUs of up to 35. The beer is sweetish with caramel tones and is rich and malty, with a full to chewy mouthfeel.

 

[DoctorMick]

Right, here's a suggested definition of styles that people can pick over. I've tried to keep them generic and to work as guidelines rather than hard and fast judging criteria. I think because of the wide range of beers that can fit into some of the categories that any tight definitions will just become stumbling blocks for many, especially newer brewers.

Writing them up did highlight a few things for me.

The first is that Mild and Brown Ale are very similar (okay, calm down until I've finished) and as someone who is old enough to remember when both were fashionable (along with Babycham), I'm buggered if I could definitively decide whether a beer was one or the other. Also, do enough people brew Milds and Brown Ales for them not to be lumped together?

The second is that Lagers and Belgian ales do cover so many different styles that both could be confusing. They could be split into Light Lagers and Dark/Malty lagers. Belgian Ales could also be split into Trappist/Abbey ales and Belgian ales (Strong, Blond and Pale) which would require Belgian Pale Ales being moved from the Pale Ale category.

The third is that we have no 'experimental' beers section. Okay, you can experiment in every style if you like, but if the guidelines are used for general guidance, it does tend to push people into a definable style, which is the point. We really could do with a maverick round for everyone to produce something different.

The styles I posted were just a starting point really so I'm happy for them to be refined.

Given the popularity of american browns I'd be tempted to leave brown ales and milds as separate categories but I'm not previous about it and I agree there would probably be an overlap.

Definitely happy for lager and Belgian to be split in to sub-categories.

Experimental is a good idea and I know it was mentioned earlier but I obviously forgot to put it in the schedule. :whistle:

I'll try and come up with another schedule tomorrow. :thumb:

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The simple way to do it has already been mentioned, via a dedicated forum section. Members can request an ID Number if they're going to enter, and that is provided along with the details of where to send the beer (people won't want their addresses to be seen in public, even by forum members - some of us must be mentalists, surely? - so there has to be an email anyway). When the beer is entered, the sender simply enters the supplied ID number.

!

Sorry folks we cannot add any new forums or sub forums, we recently merged the HERMS forum into beer brewing equipment to cut down the number of forums we have, i have added bottle swaps to the competitions forum so we now have Events, Meetups, Competitions and Bottle Swaps this would IMHO be the best place for it, i can stick threads etc so if you wanted a competition rules thread and a beer type thread sticking that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[strange-steve]

Are people likely to get upset/disheartened if they see the score? Would just returning comments be more sensitive? If people are happy to receive the score then that's great I just think I'd throw a tantrum if I got anything less than a 5! :lol:

Personally I would want to see my scores but if the consensus is no then that's fine. Although as a judge I wouldn't want people hounding me afterwards about low scores.

Some epic work there Mr. The Idiot :hat:

 

[MickDundee]

Lambic/Sour
(Includes Bretts and Brett-based Saisons , wild yeast beers, Lambics, Berliner Weisses, Oud Bruin, Gueze, etc.. Does not include Saisons or Wheat Beers as identified in the as identified in the HBF Saison or Wheat Beer style guidelines)
Sours can have an OG of between 1.020 and 1.065, with Berliner Weisse beers at the lower end. IBUs of up to 20 are typical. The flavour generally comes from the yeasts, although some styles do have a degree of maltiness. Flavours typical of sours range from fruits and spices through to sweaty horse and barnyard funk. However, these flavours should not be too dominant. Sour ales are usually tart and slightly acidic, dry with medium to high carbonation. Some styles may be sweetened with fruit syrup when poured to offset the sourness. If this is the case then a fruit syrup should be included but not added to the bottle.

I think I'll avoid judging this category!

 

[strange-steve]

I think I'll avoid judging this category!

Don't be put off, sour beers can be truly beautiful. I had my eyes opened to a whole new world of beer when I visited the Cantillon brewery, their beer is a work of art.

 

[dan125]

I'd like to know my score - as it gives a chance to try to improve my score in particular aspects, but understand this is very subjective, especially for untrained judges.
I also think that we should try to keep the entries down to one bottle, as its much easier/cheaper to send, and this would be enough for a few judges to share around.
What else still needs to be done?

 

[jceg316]

Thanks for your feedback on the rules.

@strange-steve: I don't think having the name and forum alias etc in an envelope is a good idea. There's nothing stopping the judge opening it up whilst drinking the beer and it's another thing for participants to do which might confuse some people. I don't think people will be negatively bias, we're generally a friendly community and as mentioned the judges need to supply positive and constructive feedback. Also the bottle will need some form of identification as we should make life easier, so if the envelope with the details in separates from the bottles the judges still know what they're drinking and can give feedback. Also it's good to know what abv% each beer is so when going through them, those who want to watch their daily alcohol intake can easily do so.

The reason I mentioned three bottles for submission was because that's what some other competition guidelines state. It doesn't have to be three but I think more than one. I'd be so annoyed if I made a fantastic beer, only to have the bottle break because the postman dropped it on his route. Having more than one bottle is an "insurance policy" for participants and helps out judges too. They can sample one bottle, and if they really need to there is a spare they can sample too. Similarly, if one bottle is a gusher there is a backup.

In terms of clones and kits, I'm happy to change this and allow clones and kits, as @Doctormick says they're rarely like the real thing anyway and if someone does manage to nail one then hats off to them. Also I'd like to add if you can make a kit taste good then you also deserve some kudos! There could be certain competitions, as discussed earlier where the beers have to be clones, and some where the beers are all original work. I don't know if there are legal issues here, but just to cover the forum I'll add a rule which says "Winning beers need to be cited as either original work or based on an existing recipe (i.e. a clone), and the existing recipe should be cited." This just means that if you win and your beers is a clone or taken from a recipe book, the original source is cited.

I know it's useful to look at other competitions to see what they do, I did for writing these rules, but we don't have to copy them and can make competitions even better for competitors and judges. As a participant I'd like to submit as much info as possible about my beers so they're enjoyed to the fullest, and as a judge I'd like to know more about each beer. But it's not necessary to add and shouldn't automatically gain the participant more points. Plus, if a note says "serve at 8°C in a tulip glass" the judge does not have to heed those instructions, and can drink out of a pint glass at 11°C like the rebel they are.

@mickdundee It would not be a public forum, would be a forum closed to members only and be taken off once the closing date was passed. Also I'd recommend using office addresses where possible. As someone else here mentioned, could be PM'd to those wanting to take part, but then it's up to the judge to reply dozens of times to everyone. They can't miss a reply otherwise that's pretty unfair on that person.

I think it's best to focus on the end product as opposed to how it was made. If you are a true artist with extracts, or can really make a kit shine, this should be recognised. I'm looking forward to being pleasantly surprised!

Thanks for your feedback so far everyone, would like to hear more so we can get these finished off and get the first competition rolling!