So what could explain my continued high mash pH?

[Galena]

That's okay. I sound incredulous because it's the last thing I'd want to do, but it is what you might do in your situation.

Does your tap water's pH fluctuate? Weird question as source pH has little to do with water treatment for brewing. But with so little in the water it might suggest something (mine swings between 7.5 and 10, it certainly is suggesting something). I also find I must calibrate the pH meter every time I use it (a simple single point calibration device is a nightmare, a multi-point calibration tool immediately tells you if things have gone awry - last time I picked up my meter it displayed my tap water as pH12!).

I have measured it at 7.2 and 8 according to Severn Trent over the last 12 months it has varied between 7.15 and 8.55

 

[DixeySJ]

All very interesting reading ... I have exactly the same observation. When I started brewing, I didn't measure anything and just did a 'rule of thumb' water treatment (boiling to remove temporary hardness, adding a tsp of gypsum and half a tsp of epsom per 25L, plus the crushed Camden tablet). Beer seemed fine. I then thought it would be interesting to measure things, so got some pH papers. Tried 3 different types none of which produced any sort of readable colour. Got a pH meter, which gave a mash pH of around 5.6. Beer still tasted fine. Got a water analysis done and plugged the numbers into various water treatment calculators. They all gave different answers, so I chose the one that looked closest to what I was already doing. pH still around 5.6, beer still tastes fine. My latest change is to use CRS instead of boiling to remove excess carbonate. pH is still reading around 5.6 and the beer is still great.

(I've also experimented with separate treatment for mash and sparge water, not sure it made any difference and the calculations were pretty close anyway.)

I am beginning to think that this whole water treatment thing is so much smoke and mirrors ...

(tongue firmly in cheek here)

 

[nickjdavis]

You might find this helpful and a source of comfort!

View attachment 45558

Regarding the bit about ATC....this is simply not correct.

The electrical response of a digital pH meter varies with temperature. This is quite different from the natural variance of mash pH with temperature.

All ATC does is to correct the electrical response variance of the pH meter itself. ATC does not compensate for the 0.3 variance we see in measured pH when we cool a sample from ash temp to measurement temp.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Regarding the bit about ATC....this is simply not correct.

The electrical response of a digital pH meter varies with temperature. This is quite different from the natural variance of mash pH with temperature.

All ATC does is to correct the electrical response variance of the pH meter itself. ATC does not compensate for the 0.3 variance we see in measured pH when we cool a sample from ash temp to measurement temp.

I think you may have misunderstood what was intended. I also made exactly the same point myself...

Yes, large breweries have labs for taking measurements that are located elsewhere from where the mash is carried out so by the time the sample is measured the temperature has dropped.

Temperature adjustment is another misunderstood factor. The compensation is for the electrical characteristics of the probe not for the chemical pH variance that changes with temperature. IE even a temperature adjusted probe will read different pH at mash temperature and room temperature for the same wort.

I measure my pH at mash temps. I use a cheap pH meter (about £10) and it’s optimal temp range is up to 60C. Well optimal means best rather than maximum, right? My last pH meter gave up the ghost after two years and I reckon if that’s reduced life, for £10 I’m happy.

Bottom line I guess, if the beer tastes good and your efficiency is good enough ...

 

[peebee]

I have measured it at 7.2 and 8 according to Severn Trent over the last 12 months it has varied between 7.15 and 8.55

Ah, forget that request, I'm just tip-toeing into the fog with no real idea where I'm going with it. It perhaps shows your water has a little more stability than mine (you have greater alkalinity, or buffering power, in your water), or perhaps it doesn't?

You may have to live with it as I do. Alter your treatments in step with your last brew. The changes ought to be slow enough to keep pace that way. Or go completely OTT and get your water analysed monthly! (But don't expect monthly reports to be a solution).

My previous post possibly gave the best advice to be going on with (So what could explain my continued high mash pH?).

 

[Galena]

You may have to live with it as I do.

I may indeed, but I will keep on keeping on for now. :)

 

[nickjdavis]

I think you may have misunderstood what was intended. I also made exactly the same point myself...

Yeah....i read back after posting and then saw your point about ATC which I'd previously missed!!!

Still....I hear folks all the time talking about how ATC will compensate for the varying pH with temperature...so its probably not a bad thing to have it re-iterated that ATC doesn't do that.