The Post Office Horizon Scandal

[MattH1973]

Feels like this is worth its own thread as it is (rightly) dominating the news. A few initial thoughts:

- I suggest it would be good if we can avoid it becoming overly party political, as I think it is about deeper cultural issues in our public institutions, and I suspect all parties can claim to have played some part in bringing the issue to the fore, as well as having done things in the past that reflect less well.
- The key point for me is what seems to be a culture in the Post Office, that apparently went right to the top of wanting to conceal the issue with Horizon, even when that meant innocent people being convicted.
- I think this permeates our ruling classes more broadly - and I don't just mean politicians - I mean the top of the civil service and quasi governmental appointments (like the Post Office Executive) also. All too often these institutions let the public down and the people at the top are rewarded for failure (with money and honours). In these respects, as well as the fight for justice for the "little people" taking decades, there are obvious parallels with the Hillsborough disaster and subsequent cover up. We are entitled to ask what other scandals are currently being concealed ?
- The role of mainstream media. ITV deserve real credit for using drama to really bring this to life, but why did the MSM not highlight all this more overtly ? None of it was a secret.
- And what is the best way to deliver justice for the convicted sub post masters ? I favour the model where a law is passed to strike down all convictions of sub postmasters that could be affected by Horizon. The objection seems to be that one or two genuinely guilty cases might erroneously get let off - so be it. It would be unacceptable to make the vast majority of postmasters (who are obviously innocent) wait years to mitigate this small issue. there could be a provision in the new law to allow the CPS (and not the post office) to re-prosecute the genuinely guilty cases. I hope that what Sunak just announced will deliver this.

 

[Pavros]

I think that you'll find that that attitude/culture exists at the top level of all business and not just in civil service and government. 30 years ago the attitude was 'we'll do what we want, who is going to stop us?' which Boris then said out loud when he was PM. It is immoral and corrupt behaviour from people who will do anything to maintain their income level and lifestyle.

 

[Rodcx500z]

My view concerns compensation, it should not fall on the tax payer. horizon cost the tax payer 58 million all compensation should be paid by Fujitsu nobody will convince me they didn't know it was flawed all computer programs are flawed hence updates and patches. How can any company not raise concerns that 700 postmasters were on the fiddle i mean come on someone must have said there is something not right here

 

[Chippy_Tea]

. How can any company not raise concerns that 700 postmasters were on the fiddle i mean come on someone must have said there is something not right here

Many Postmasters told them the software was broken but it would appear they chose to ignore them or do little to find out if they were right, did they honestly believe these honest people all decided to rob the post office at or around the same time, there is no way the tax payer should be funding this compensation.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

£100 million of taxpayers money spent fighting this and they are to offer £600,000 compensation.

 

[Rodcx500z]

£600,000 compensation.

Is that per postmaster/mistress

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Is that per postmaster/mistress

Yes.

But the Department for Business told the BBC convictions would not be lifted until former sub-postmasters and postmistresses signed a declaration that they had not committed any crime.
Mr Hollinrake said by signing the document, they will become eligible for the compensation payment of £600,000 already available to people who have cleared their names via the courts.
The declaration is designed to prevent "guilty people walking away with hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money", he said, adding: "Anyone falsely signing this will be subject for prosecution for fraud."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67932595

 

[JockyBrewer]

ITV need to share blame in all of this for not making a TV drama sooner to bring this to the government’s attention.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Sub-postmaster quits after Post Office TV drama​

A sub-postmaster has decided to close his branch after being "reduced to tears" by a TV drama about the Post Office accounting scandal.
Graham Livesey - who also experienced issues with the Horizon software - said he would be closing the branch in Staveley, near Kendal, Cumbria, in July.
Mr Livesey said it had been a "hard decision" but he could no longer work with the Post Office, which is wholly-owned by the government.
A spokesperson said it could not comment on individual cases, and added it was "committed" to continuing its work to transform the Post Office.
The Post Office prosecuted 736 sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses between 1999 and 2015 based on information from the Horizon system, after faulty software wrongly made it look like money was missing.
The Prime Minister Rishi Sunak announced a new law on Wednesday to "swiftly" exonerate the victims.

'I was lied to'​

Mr Livesey took on the branch in 2009 and said there had been no problems for about a year, until "all of a sudden" he began having shortages.
Because of his IT background, Mr Livesey said he suspected network errors and contacted the Horizon helpdesk.
"I was told it must be a branch error and I was the only one," he said.
"In consequence, I realised that at that point in time I was lied to."

Mr Livesey told BBC Radio Cumbria that he suffered "minor losses" over the years but was able to pay the money back "on each occasion".
"It's been frequent errors and intermittent errors which have caused this, and every single time it's just a build up with me repaying and repaying," he said.
Mr Livesey was eventually compensated, but he said it was watching ITV drama Mr Bates vs the Post Office was "the straw that broke the camel's back".
"It was enough to reduce me to tears. I was bawling my eyes out all the way through," he said.
"It was just incredible that the Post Office went to the lengths to defend the brand name.
"It's something that I can't go back to and I can't work with them anymore."
Mr Livesey said he had given the Post Office six months' notice and his branch, which is the only one in the village, would close in July.
"It was a very hard decision to make. I've been keeping the Post office running for years now," he said.
"There was a lot to take in, but on the balance of everything, I have to live with my own conscience and my conscience is clear."
A Post Office spokesperson urged anyone affected to come forward and added: “We are acutely aware of the human cost of the scandal and are doing all we can to right the wrongs of the past, as far as that is possible.
"Both the Post Office and the Government are committed to full and fair compensation which puts people back in the position they would have been in had these events not taken place."
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[MattH1973]

as to the funding of compensation, whilst as a taxpayer I would want someone else (ie Fujitsu) to fund it all, but I dont think that will or should happen. Compensation should be funded by whoever was at fault, and it is clear that the Post Office and the UK state was very significantly at fault, as well as probably Fujitsu. This is why the incompetence of our ruling classes is such a key issue, because as taxpayers we all pick up the tab.

I think that you'll find that that attitude/culture exists at the top level of all business and not just in civil service and government. 30 years ago the attitude was 'we'll do what we want, who is going to stop us?' which Boris then said out loud when he was PM. It is immoral and corrupt behaviour from people who will do anything to maintain their income level and lifestyle.

I think I know what you mean but I am not sure it's right to say this applies to "all business". I think it more likely applies to those businesses (and therefore government) that don't have to compete for revenue / market share. I think there are plenty of businesses - particularly small local ones - that dont show these issues at all - because if they did their customers would simply go elsewhere. My local farm shop would be an obvious example. I am sure there are also some bigger businesses that are well run and provide excellent service overall. It's the monopolies where issues arise.

 

[Clint]

It's definitely true that top of lots of big business is totally corrupt and really will rape their employees of anything they can to maintain their own fortunes.
I KNOW!

 

[Leon103]

Imagine of ITV did a drama on water pollution, climate change, cocid, ppe contracts, refugee crisis, energy prices, cost of living or NHS......

 

[JockyBrewer]

Imagine of ITV did a drama on water pollution, climate change, cocid, ppe contracts, refugee crisis, energy prices, cost of living or NHS......

Grenfell.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Off shore banking would be good

 

[JockyBrewer]

My view concerns compensation, it should not fall on the tax payer. horizon cost the tax payer 58 million all compensation should be paid by Fujitsu nobody will convince me they didn't know it was flawed all computer programs are flawed hence updates and patches. How can any company not raise concerns that 700 postmasters were on the fiddle i mean come on someone must have said there is something not right here

I don't really agree that there's culpability with Fujitsu unless they were covering up criminal acts or perjured themselves in court or parliament.

All computer systems have bugs, it's how you react to and manage the issues they cause. The Post Office initially chose to prosecute people rather then look into what was going on, which is bad. Even when they had the evidence there were problems and they was a good chance they were falsely prosecuting people they carried on, which in my mind should be a criminal offence in itself.

 

[An Ankoù]

Who should carry the can?
Whose image and likeness is on the stamps?

Yes, "River Pollution, The Musical", I'm looking forward to that one.

 

[Rodcx500z]

What i said was, the compensation should not be paid by the tax paying people of this country, The tax payers paid 58 million to have that system installed we should not have to pay compensation, i agree with you on people being prosecuted for wrong doing, also the torys should pay back all the donations they had from fujitsu as it looks like it goes hand in hand

 

[Chippy_Tea]

What i said was, the compensation should not be paid by the tax paying people of this country, The tax payers paid 58 million to have that system installed we should not have to pay compensation, i agree with you on people being prosecuted for wrong doing, also the torys should pay back all the donations they had from fujitsu as it looks like it goes hand in hand

I didn't know until today they are still using fujitsu.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I didn't know until today they are still using fujitsu.

Yeah i only found out today, at the moment they have 1.9 billion worth of contracts, last year they made 22 million profit in the uk. it bloody stinks

 

[MattH1973]

not aimed at any one poster, but the replies to this thread are quite telling - the primary failure here (pursuing erroneous prosecutions) seems to be by the UK public sector, and yet many replies are used to vent frustration with "big business". Steps to "control big business" often involve increasing the size and reach of the UK state - the same UK state that completely failed here - be careful what you wish for......

Fujitsu seemingly built a flawed computer system - they aren't the first and they wont be the last. But it was the Post Office that signed it off for use in live, and the Post Office that decided to prosecute and bankrupt their own sub postmasters rather than face up to its flaws. By all means the public sector can try to claw back some of the fees they paid - but this will depend on what the contract says - and who signed that contract on behalf, ultimately, of UK taxpayers - you guessed it - drumroll please - Post Office leadership......