Water profiles/salts for IPA

[Blinky]

Hi Folks,

Been struggling with getting my head round water profiles etc, have read a few of the primers but am still quite confused. I live is a very soft water area and think this might be causing me problems as its (as far as ive been told) pretty much RO water out my tap! Ive asked scottish water for the water reports and have attached the details here but was hoping somebody could make sense of whats what and tell me what figures I use for the ez water calculator spreadsheet and what values I should be aiming for when brewing a hoppy ale?

 

[foxy]

My water is soft and very much like RO water. My additions for the American IPA I did recently was 4 grams gypsum 4 grams chloride and 2 ml lactic acid. That brings my pH down to 5.4. I use Brewers Friend and just type in water source mine is Cardinia Res (which is mostly de sal) although all the rain we have had just lately it shouldn't be) the additions are then calculated for you. Even if I am making a stout or a porter as long as the base malt is the same volume it will be the same salt additions as for a bitter, IPA Golden Ale etc. So those additions is for 5.5 kg base malt.
This is worthwhile reading this to help you get your head around water.
Mash pH control - German brewing and more

 

[MickDundee]

Your water profile isn’t a million miles away from mine. I use the Jim’s Brewkit calculator and when I’ve done IPAs/APAs I’ve gone with the “dry pale” profile.

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

 

[EsterBanana]

Cor yeah, water huh... curious if the profile changes over time, which of course it probably does if you are on mains water, how do you spot it?

I remember some days the water would smell chlorinated, but most of the time not, presumably from the dosing schedule.

Do you do regular testing?

Erm... I really must buy a mass spectrometer and learn how to use it?

 

[Blinky]

Im also wonderign if im over thinking it - is it just that pale ales need to be drunk fresh and by the time I bottle condition for 2 weeks then move to the fridge for another week that in reality ive only got a couple of weeks left before the hoppiness fades? What about one of those things that lets me ferment under pressure and serve from the FV? Are they any good?
https://brew2bottle.co.uk/products/fermenter-king-gen-3-starter-kit?contact_posted=true#contact_formFor example the above, would it let me ferment, dry hop and serve from the fermentor?

 

[EsterBanana]

before the hoppiness fades

This fascinates me, I have done the same brew kit several times and kept bottles for the previous kit to compare. My process is very simple with little room for variation, I clean very thoroughly and am confident that the same thing happens on a very repeatable basis.

I find the fresh beer taste very pleasurable, I call it tasting a bit 'green', of course you are right you are right the hoppiness is very pronounced, however I also find them a bit, um, not one-dimensional, but lets say three-dimensional. Good but ultimately not that complex.

Comparing directly with a bottle that has nicely matured for a few months and the difference is incredible. The 'green' aspects have faded, the overall impression is a more solid rounded taste but the complexity is through the roof. So much going on, but at a much subtler level.

I have tried the same experiment with visitors and everyone agrees that the matured beers are preferable, although both are very good in their own ways.

I am keen to learn more about what is actually happening here.

 

[Blinky]

This fascinates me, I have done the same brew kit several times and kept bottles for the previous kit to compare. My process is very simple with little room for variation, I clean very thoroughly and am confident that the same thing happens on a very repeatable basis.

I find the fresh beer taste very pleasurable, I call it tasting a bit 'green', of course you are right you are right the hoppiness is very pronounced, however I also find them a bit, um, not one-dimensional, but lets say three-dimensional. Good but ultimately not that complex.

Comparing directly with a bottle that has nicely matured for a few months and the difference is incredible. The 'green' aspects have faded, the overall impression is a more solid rounded taste but the complexity is through the roof. So much going on, but at a much subtler level.

I have tried the same experiment with visitors and everyone agrees that the matured beers are preferable, although both are very good in their own ways.

I am keen to learn more about what is actually happening here.

Its been the same for the past 3 years! cannot make a hoppy beer that lasts more than a couple of days. I have a rigorous cleaning process, try and keep oxygen out - have scavenged the CO2 and also used Oxygen absorbgin caps etc

 

[Dorst]

These are the profiles for hoppy beers in Brewfather:

I find their water calculator amazing.

1) You input in your source values (allows for diluted water from 2 sources)
2) Select your target profile
3) Click the Auto button
4) get recommended additions for salts

You can still tweak the additions and you can input any acid additions which will feed back your mash pH.

Way easier than messing around with brewing Excel sheets. I can't recommend Brewfather enough ;-)

 

[EsterBanana]

Its been the same for the past 3 years! cannot make a hoppy beer that lasts more than a couple of days. I have a rigorous cleaning process, try and keep oxygen out - have scavenged the CO2 and also used Oxygen absorbgin caps etc

I sincerely wish I knew enough to help in a meaningful way, I can try...

First, are you dry hopping?

 

[Blinky]

I sincerely wish I knew enough to help in a meaningful way, I can try...

First, are you dry hopping?

yep 3 days - last beer was 90g 20m hopstand and 120g 3 day dry hop

 

[EsterBanana]

Wow... that's a lot of hops! I am using nothing like that most of the time, between 60-80g hops for the dry hop.

Are you dry hopping after fermentation has finished?

Do you add boiling water to the dry hops to rehydrate them before adding them to the beer?

How are you storing/conditioning the beer after the dry hop?

I have to go now, got a bit of a late start today as it was raining a lot earlier and didn't want yto turn up soaked, but I will be back this evening, have a good day!!

 

[Hanglow]

You will need to add some calcium salts to the mash and a touch of acid, if not in the mash then just before any finings during the boil. Just calcium salts should get your mash pH in the right range for a pale beer, but you will probably need some acid to get the wort down to 5.1 or so which is most effective for copper finings. You have fairly similar water to me.

For darker beers like stouts you will probably need to add some alkalinity to the mash, you can use bicarbonate of soda for that in most cases.

As for hoppyness fading, it will almost certainly be oxidation. So best advice here is to do any transfers while the beer is actively fermenting, this means the yeast will quickly scavenge any O2. If you keg then use a spunding valve and transfer with some remaining extract, bottling is more tricky, so look into krausening/spiese/adding sugar to the beer and letting it start to referment before bottling, then when you bottle have the absolute minimum headspace possible. It should quickly carbonate within a few days, then store the beer as close to freezing as possible.

 

[Dorst]

First: please don't add boiling water when you dry hop! The idea is to get the hop oils out of the hops - adding boiling water will evaporate them.

I agree with Hanglow that fading hops are almost certainly oxidation of the beer. There are some moments in the process that are more likely to pick up oxidation than others.

- Dry hop: Try to dry hop at the end of active fermentation. This way the oxygen that gets in during dry hopping will be replaced by CO2. I've seen people add a tiny bit of sugar when dry hopping to get the same effect (but never done so myself).
- Transfer to keg or bottle: This is honestly the most likely place to pick up oxygen. Kegging has some obvious advantages to bottling since the time of exposure is shorter and you can purge the keg of any excess oxygen. When bottling make sure that you minimise splashing and dont leave too much space in the bottle.
- Store your bottles cold after they have carbonated. Temperature plays a bit role in hop degradation and oxidation.

 

[Hanglow]

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/flavour-stability-in-home-brewing.88597/
This is a very good read too

 

[Blinky]

What about these then?
https://brew2bottle.co.uk/products/fermenter-king-gen-3-starter-kit?contact_posted=true#contact_formWould that let me dry hop and serve from my fermenting fridge right from the fermenter?
I dont have kegs or anything and to be honest and very reticent to expand until I can make a hoppy beer which is what I really enjoy drinking!

 

[Buffers brewery]

If you're using glass bottles you might want to try brown PET bottles. I use them to store six bottles-worth of my NEIPA brews, the rest is kegged. Takes me around six weeks to drink the keg and the bottled beer still tastes as good after that..
I fill the bottles to the brim with the wand right to the bottom of the bottle so when I remove the wand there's about 30mm of head space between beer and the bottle rim. Loosely fit the cap and squeeze the bottle until beer runs out of the cap then tighten quickly to seal. No air in the bottle. As the beer carbonates (primed in the keg before bottling) CO2 creates the head space as the bottle recovers it's shape. Might make a difference

 

[EsterBanana]

This is realy interesting, I get massive hoppy aroma and flavour, easily comparable to the majority of pub beer and in many cases I would consider it better, yet:

I absolutely do add boiling water to my hops to get them going before adding to the fermenter.

I do wait for fermentation to finish before dry hopping.

I transfer to a bottling bucket via a siphon tube with both buckets open to the air for the time it takes to do so

I have the bottling bucket partially open to allow the beer to go through the bottling wand into the bottles

I do not fill all the way to the top, the bottles are filled to the top then the bottling wand removed so there is a gap at the top.

The top typically is filled with CO2 'smoke' when I open the bottle, this is because the air/oxygen is used up by the bottle conditioning.

So...

Either my perception of what constitutes a hoppy beer is nothing like what you guys are experiencing, or it's something else!?

I have absolutely no trouble any all identifying all the hop flavours = piney, green tea, citrus, tropical fruit, herbal, spicy, berry, etc. flavours at all, they are clean and distinctive.

What's going on?

 

[Blinky]

Ive tried PET bottles, made no difference either! My process is pretty much the same as yours, EsterBanana

 

[EsterBanana]

It's a solid process! It's basically the one that is outlined by LoveBrewing for their kits. I have had nothing but success following their advice.

As I say, maybe I am just ignorant of the levels of hoppiness that can be achieved, but I am absolutely not complaining, and neither are any of my guests, everyone is impressed.

Silly question time, but are you thoroughly cleaning and sanitising everything? I consider this to be the only actual work involved in brewing kits and spend a great deal of time and put loads of effort into making sure everything is spotless and absolutely sanitised!

I use swing top bottles with proper rubber seals and I sterilise them in the oven (not the rubber of course) like I always have done for jam jars, I find this to be a lot of work, but extremely reliable. And I kinda like the fact I don't use chemicals.

 

[Blinky]

I clean the bottles in VWP then rinse with water, then sanitise with no rinse sanitizer and leave them on a bottle rack to drip whilst I prepare the sugar for carbonating