Cleaning equipment after using diastaticus yeast

[gyurmaember]

My previous cleaning regime has been thoroughly cleaning with plain water and a kitchen sponge to physically remove stuff, then leave it to dry. Then just before use, I starsan it for about 10 minutes. This has been fine for all situations for years apart from this last brew with Belle Saison. Though thinking about it, it's impossible to thoroughly scrub the drain valve and I've normally just flushed it with water and assumed everything came out.

Need to be more rigorous with saison yeast in future.

I think I need to put all my bottles through the dishwasher on a hot setting

I always take the valve fully apart, and chuck it into the dishwasher. And after the initial rinse, i wash the fermenter with the kegwasher for an hour, with the blanking plate, the silicone seal also goes to the dishwasher, with the tri clamp.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I hadn't thought about dishwashing the parts. Mine is a brewmonk30L conical, which as far as I can tell us the same as brewdevil, ss brewtech etc. All made in the same factory in China. I didn't know if the valves or seals would take high temperatures

 

[Sadfield]

Extra FVs shouldn't really be necessary, if you follow a basic strategy of cleaning with sufficient contact time and temperature.

1) Physically clean, and rinse.
2) Alkaline cleaning to remove organic matter.
3) Occasional Acid clean to remove non-organic mineral deposits that cause beer stone.
4) Sanitising.

 

[gyurmaember]

I hadn't thought about dishwashing the parts. Mine is a brewmonk30L conical, which as far as I can tell us the same as brewdevil, ss brewtech etc. All made in the same factory in China. I didn't know if the valves or seals would take high temperatures

I thought I read somewhere you have a grainfather fermenter. It's my bad sorry.
They're all should withstand the temperatures in the dishwasher.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I thought I read somewhere you have a grainfather fermenter. It's my bad sorry.
They're all should withstand the temperatures in the dishwasher.

I've got the grainfather G30 all in one brew system, but the simpler brewmonk/devil fermenter

 

[JockyBrewer]

It’s near impossible to contaminate stainless - if you can’t see any surface soil then a quick spray of starsan is all you need.

The issue is usually hiding in valves - ball valves always have little recesses that liquid and hide in and are tough to flush out.

Take off both the tape and take them apart. Those mini valves are usually undone by putting an Allen/hex key in one end and then turning that. If there’s gunk in there it might be tough to undo - you might be able to soften it by soaking the whole valve in hot water for a while

If you can’t get them undone then buy new valves. They aren’t that expensive. Take them apart before first use, and then after every ferment.

 

[Sadfield]

It’s near impossible to contaminate stainless - if you can’t see any surface soil then a quick spray of starsan is all you need.

If you only assume that surface soil is always visible to the naked eye.

 

[Agentgonzo]

It’s near impossible to contaminate stainless - if you can’t see any surface soil then a quick spray of starsan is all you need

As far as I am aware, even a visually clean surface can still have a microscopic amount of yeast cells present, and these can multiply in your wort.

I've also not seen a definitive answer as to whether starsan kills yeast cells. There are statements saying it does, and statements saying it doesn't.

Previously it's not been a problem if I had trace amounts of other yeast as it wouldn't affect the final brew. But with diastaticus it does.

 

[Sadfield]

I've also not seen a definitive answer as to whether starsan kills yeast cells. There are statements saying it does, and statements saying it doesn't.

Milk the funk suggests both statements can be true, as it depends on what contact time and temperature it was tested at.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/w/index....n=toggle_view_desktop#Cleaning_and_Sanitizing

 

[JockyBrewer]

As far as I am aware, even a visually clean surface can still have a microscopic amount of yeast cells present, and these can multiply in your wort.

I've also not seen a definitive answer as to whether starsan kills yeast cells. There are statements saying it does, and statements saying it doesn't.

Previously it's not been a problem if I had trace amounts of other yeast as it wouldn't affect the final brew. But with diastaticus it does.

I'd always recommend cleaning everything with a PBW like cleaner (that includes stripping down taps and other ports), as that should remove all biofilm, and at that point 'visibly clean' should be fine. If you get it visibly clean with that and you're doing a starsan spray then you really shouldn't be getting anything carried over.

I'm pretty certain that your issue is hiding in the valves somewhere.

 

[An Ankoù]

As far as I am aware, even a visually clean surface can still have a microscopic amount of yeast cells present, and these can multiply in your wort.

I've also not seen a definitive answer as to whether starsan kills yeast cells. There are statements saying it does, and statements saying it doesn't.

Previously it's not been a problem if I had trace amounts of other yeast as it wouldn't affect the final brew. But with diastaticus it does.

I agree entirely. I also understand that some of these yeasts can form a protective biofilm, which can stop mild santisers getting to it. I would use a good strong bleach solution on all things plastic and Chemipro Wash or one of the caustic cleaners on SS. The easiest way is to keep a separate fermenter for diastaticus yeasts.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I'm pretty certain that your issue is hiding in the valves somewhere

I'm certain it's either in the values, or the drainage tube that I can't easily clean mechanically. Either way, everything is getting a blitz as soon as the current batch comes out

 

[Brewnaldo]

Honestly don't know if it's enough, but another thing I always do is take my plastic taps off and put them in a mug of boiling water whilst I'm cleaning the bucket. Surely must deal with anything alive in there

 

[jezbrews]

I'm going to have to resurrect this thread because of my issue. I use a stainless steel conical fv. I made a belle saison fermented yeast a couple brews ago. Afterwards, I soaked with VWP and hot water, and made sure to drain using both the dump port and racking arm. After cleaning, I rinsed (again, with both ports) and dried. Before use, I used chemsan and swirled it around, releasing some from the ports. I put the lid on and shook to ensure all surfaces were covered, with the hose I was going to use having had the dilution pushed through it and it was left in. This then stayed in the fermenter for the entire boil, so a good hour. After draining (I don't do anything between, don't fear the foam!) I actually transfered the wort hot into the fermenter using the hose to the bottom port. Boiling hot. There should not have been any issue, right? The ale fermented out 1.008 with a non-dia yeast. I put this down to the overnight mashing I did, which could have really converted a lot more of the polysaccs than I was accustomed to. After this, I then did another brew. Cleaning process had been repeated. This time I did chill but the mash was normal so should have had polysaccs left, but again, this time fermented out to 1.006/7 using another ale yeast (Mangrove Jack's Liberty Bell).

What gives and how can I fix this? I'm going to borrow a caustic and booster solution from work and put all solid SS parts in the oven at this rate...

 

[Sadfield]

What was the apparent attenuation on these two brews?

Have you checked the accuracy of refractometers, hydrometer and thermometers? Was the desired mash temperature hit?

How stable was the gravity or carbonation in packaging?

 

[JockyBrewer]

Given your cleaning description I don't think it would be remaining diastatic yeast. I'd check measuring equipment.

It's a highly attenuating yeast, so with the right wort makeup 1.006/7 is not out of the question.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Agree with Jocky. Any remaining yeast will have died very quickly when you added boiling hot wort to the fermenter. The metal will have happily conducted the heat throughout the fermenter.

 

[jezbrews]

Unfortunately I don't remember the first one, but this would have been 86%, however when keeping it hot, I did accidentally overheat the mash to nearly 70°C, so I'm still surprised that so much was still converted. I'm not sure what apparent attenuation is based on, since it assumes a certain make up of sugars.

My hydrometer appears accurate as I'm always hitting pre and post boil gravities as expected, even when I've been diluting high gravity mash.

From what I can tell the mash temp was hit fine. If anything it was a little over at one point.

I will try making a porter, a skill I want to perfect anyway, with a high FG this should show up whether there is actually anything to my concerns.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Doing temperature corrections with hydrometer and ensuring well stirred at reading times?
Sounds like a very attenuative wort, did you mash out?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Funnily enough, it’s only as my Bière de Garde is reaching what I’d normally call the “end” of fermentation (1.010) that I’ve learned about this aspect of diastaticus-positive yeast (I’m using WY-3711). Hmmm.

Wyeast published some a report a few years ago titled “understanding diastaticus” but it’s clearly aimed at commercial breweries, and also sounds very much like it’s designed to limit their legal risk rather than anything else. Basically they say issues in packaging can come from ‘a single cell’ of D-positive yeast… and that the gene is present in wild strains anyhow, which as home brewers we can expect to be swirling around and landing in our FVs pretty much any time.

I think I’ll just give the FV and tap a good dose of VWP after brewing, and mark it as ‘used for Saison’. I must also remember to boil the fittings of the Corny when the beer is finished :-)