Belgian breweries that use dry yeast, experiences with dry yeasts for Belgian styles, liquid snobbery, etc...

[darlacat]

Prompted by another thread on Fermentis' safale T58, I've been thinking a bit about the use of dry yeasts in Belgian beers and by Belgian breweries. There is some suggestion online - quite convincing - that Struise use T58 for Pannepot, and De Ranke use T58 blended with S33 (or maybe another Fermentis strain) for XX Bitter. Are the use of these, and other dry yeast strains more prevalent in Belgian breweries - i.e. micros that won't have their own proprietary strain - than might be obvious? Does anyone have knowledge of other Belgian micros using dry strains like these?

Castle maltings suggets the use of these strains on its webpages: CASTLE MALTING®: Beer and whisky recipes

Now, there is no doubt that the liquid cultures available are very good (I've just used one of the Wyeast strains for a Tripel myself), but I am wondering how much of the snobbery for liquid yeast (and style guidelines) in some discussions perhaps convinces some of the unsuitability of certain yeasts for certain beers (the same might be said for the use of 'candi' sugars against other sugars).

 

[phettebs]

I've brewed a lot of Belgian beers but always with liquid yeast. I've not tried any dried. My goto for Tripels is Wy3787. I've tried other liquid strains for tripels and I wasn't as happy with the results. One thing I notice in US commercial tripels is that they are way high in banana attributes that I'm assuming is due to isoamyl acetate. I'm not a fan of it in tripels. When I've read about T58, the notes mention banana flavours so I've avoided it for my tripels. That's just personal preference though.

 

[Rochefort]

The T58 yeast are perfectly fine for beers where the yeast character isn't dominant, both Pannepot (lots of herbs and dark malt, I have brewed this) and XX (lots and lots of hops, not brewed this) are good examples of yeast character being less important. I know some micros (De Dolle etc) get their yeast from larger breweries, some (de la Senne) have their own house strain and are super-enthusiatic about their yeast. They might still use T58 as a bottling strain though!

For your delicate Abbey/Trappist clones, liquid is far superior, the flavours you can generate with these are too specific to the strain and fermentation conditions for T58 to replicate them. You can't brew a Rochefort or Chimay style beer without their yeast; and whilst the Achouffe and Corsendonk 'general puropse' yeasts are similar, I fermented them side by side in a Belgian pale and they made beers that you couldn't mistake as the same.

 

[phettebs]

Thanks Rochefort for the info! After posting the above about T58, I stumbled into the T58 thread and gave it a read.

 

[darlacat]

Thanks Rochefort for the info! After posting the above about T58, I stumbled into the T58 thread and gave it a read.

I think that was my fault for asking about the origin of T58 - not sure why it caused such a ruckus...

 

[darlacat]

Thanks @Rochefort - very helpful. I am inclined to stick with liquid strains for Trappist-esque beers, but want to brew something along the lines of XX, which has piqued my interest in this topic a bit. Although I can't decide whether to go with T58 on its own or blend it with another strain - S33 or BE256 as De Ranke are rumoured to do...

Would you be willing to share your Pannepot recipe?

 

[chthon]

Quite synchronistically, on the the Dutch HBF there is also a thread started were someone complains about liquid yeasts. Mostly centering about high price and much effort.

 

[MickDundee]

I gave up on trying to brew Belgian beers when I was only using dry yeast, they were always incredibly underwhelming (witbier aside).

I haven’t tried brewing one with liquid yet but, if my experience with English style ales is an indicator, then it should make a big differences.

 

[Hanglow]

I've used t58 a few times but it always underwhelmed me too. The liquid belgian yeasts are excellent imo. Also tried a couple of the abbey dried yeasts, not particularly good either

As an aside, XX is a beer I should love as it is dry and bitter, but every time i have had it i get a lot of nail polish aromas from it .

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

A good friend of mine brews excellent Belgian-style beers and he swears by Nottingham yeast

 

[Rochefort]

Thanks @Rochefort - very helpful. I am inclined to stick with liquid strains for Trappist-esque beers, but want to brew something along the lines of XX, which has piqued my interest in this topic a bit. Although I can't decide whether to go with T58 on its own or blend it with another strain - S33 or BE256 as De Ranke are rumoured to do...

Would you be willing to share your Pannepot recipe?

The Pannepot recipe is based on other clone recipes. If I rebrewed it, I would probably cut back on the spices, boost the cell count to 400 billion, up the sugar 100g~200g and reduce the malt to keep the gravity the same. I am pretty sure that the major flavours come from the yeast and the hops, not the spices, the spice additions were too aggressive. I have made much better Dark Strong beers and Tripels, so it isn't on the list of rebrews for now.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 24.06 l
Post Boil Volume: 20.31 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 19.00 l
Bottling Volume: 17.10 l
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 86.7 EBC
Estimated IBU: 32.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 69.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 74.4 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.250 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 64.8 %
1.000 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 12.3 %
0.500 kg Carabelge (30.0 EBC) Grain 3 6.2 %
0.350 kg Carafa III (1034.2 EBC) Grain 4 4.3 %
45.00 g Bramling Cross [6.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 23.9 IBUs
28.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.60 %] - Boil 30 min Hop 6 8.7 IBUs
0.500 kg Candi Sugar, Dark [Boil for 10 min] Sugar 7 6.2 %
0.500 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 10 min] Sugar 8 6.2 %
7.00 g Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 9 -
3.00 g Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
2.00 g Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
A few sprigs of Thyme from the garden
300 billion Belgian Ale (White Labs #WLP550) [35.49 Yeast 12 -
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil) Other 13 -
2 mins of Oxygen at 1L/min through SS stone

Mash Schedule: Hochkurz Infusion
Total Grain Weight: 8.100 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Beta Add 15.62 l of water at 73.8 C 63.0 C 30 min
Alpha Add 7.10 l of water at 93.0 C 71.0 C 40 min
Mash Out Add 7.10 l of water at 94.7 C 76.0 C 5 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 3.10l) of 77.0 C water

Ferment at 20 C and let rise to 23 C

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Interested to see you use 2mins of oxygen - I have a 2micron stone and have tried it, but it generated so much foam in the chilled wort that I had trouble pitching the yeast!

 

[StJayJay]

I think that was my fault for asking about the origin of T58 - not sure why it caused such a ruckus...

I was the original poster on that one so I have to shoulder some responsibility, although I only asked for suggestions on a fermentation schedule for that yeast.

 

[darlacat]

I was the original poster on that one so I have to shoulder some responsibility, although I only asked for suggestions on a fermentation schedule for that yeast.

Nah, definitely my bad for lighting the touchpaper. Still baffled as to why a discussion about T58 yeast turned so strange though!

 

[darlacat]

I've used t58 a few times but it always underwhelmed me too. The liquid belgian yeasts are excellent imo. Also tried a couple of the abbey dried yeasts, not particularly good either

As an aside, XX is a beer I should love as it is dry and bitter, but every time i have had it i get a lot of nail polish aromas from it .

Yeah, the liquid strains are fantastic - just wondering if we're missing a trick with certain dry strains if Belgian breweries are using them (if that is the case); being too hung up on only using x yeast for x 'style', don't use x yeast as it's not 'Belgian', etc. My own personal crusade against the rigidity of style guidelines and ingredients and the like...

I don't remember nail polish in XX Bitter, although I haven't drank one in years. Need to source a few bottles... I might just email De Ranke and see if they spill on which yeasts they're using.

I haven’t tried brewing one with liquid yet but, if my experience with English style ales is an indicator, then it should make a big differences.

My bitter and mild massively jumped up in quality when I started using wy1469... Another thought that has crossed my mind is experimenting with British POF+ yeasts in Belgian style/inspired recipes, and vice versa - both as a means of sticking two fingers up to dominance of the BJCP styles (:tinhat:) and to create something a bit different. There are also synergies between British and Belgian beer, in my mind - historically, at least.

 

[Sadfield]

Yeah, the liquid strains are fantastic - just wondering if we're missing a trick with certain dry strains if Belgian breweries are using them (if that is the case); being too hung up on only using x yeast for x 'style', don't use x yeast as it's not 'Belgian', etc.

That was the whole point on the other thread. The need of other posters to claim the fermentation profile and yeast being used in the original post was British rather than Belgian, instead of offering advice on how to achieve the flavour profile they were after.

As for wet vs dry yeast, it's just a living cell that consumes sugar, a good brewer will get the best out of both. Any difference is purely down to dry yeast having to appeal to a much larger market, so will tend to have characteristics that more brewers can work with.

 

[darlacat]

Quite synchronistically, on the the Dutch HBF there is also a thread started were someone complains about liquid yeasts. Mostly centering about high price and much effort.

Do you have a link to the Dutch HBF thread on this?

Thanks for the Pannepot recipe @Rochefort - much appreciated!

 

[dad_of_jon]

Yeah, the liquid strains are fantastic - just wondering if we're missing a trick with certain dry strains if Belgian breweries are using them (if that is the case); being too hung up on only using x yeast for x 'style', don't use x yeast as it's not 'Belgian', etc. My own personal crusade against the rigidity of style guidelines and ingredients and the like...

Agreed, Brew what you want to, some of the best experiences to be had come from fusions of usually separate things. not just in the beer world.
Some beers I brew are across categories some aren't. My recent 11.42% barley wine is very similar to bush 12% - Is that a barley wine?

A triple I did turned out the same as Wilderen Tripel Kanunnik. which was nice, BUT still not a patch on the tripels from lupulis, karemliet or gouden caroulus.

All have been done with dried yeast. I have tried to clone a commerical I like once or twice but have never nailed it. I suspect equipment and process are always going to mean some variation. That's not to say most of the attempts have turned out lovely just not what I was aiming for so I know now not to bother. My weiss beers I often hop with american hops for banana & orange. I do a belgian wit using 2 litres of orange juice, inspired by hoegaarden but stronger more robust, more fruity less perfumey. So styles are great if you like a particular type of beer in particular. I do like to go off piste and mix it up a bit, that's how I moved away from lager .

It may well be I could get closer to my fave commericals if I used liquid yeast but I'm having a damn good hoot using dried as it is. I have a kveik to dry out. Can't wait. My last cool discovery was MJ's cali common.

 

[darlacat]

Agreed, Brew what you want to, some of the best experiences to be had come from fusions of usually separate things. not just in the beer world.
Some beers I brew are across categories some aren't. My recent 11.42% barley wine is very similar to bush 12% - Is that a barley wine?

I agree: especially when you consider how idosyncratic Belgian beer is - and how unfixed the recipes sometimes are - it seems at odds to say 'you can only make x beer using x ingredients, yeast, etc'.

It may well be I could get closer to my fave commericals if I used liquid yeast but I'm having a damn good hoot using dried as it is. I have a kveik to dry out. Can't wait. My last cool discovery was MJ's cali common.

Horses for courses, I think. As I said, I've found my bitters, milds, etc. to improve with liquid yeasts, especially Wy1469, but will always use dry for something more clean and hop-forward - be it British or American (non-NEIPA); S04 and Nottingham are right for these jobs, in my experience. I've also found little discernible benefit in using liquid lager yeasts over W34/70 - the only difference there is more work or expense in making starters or buying multiple packs. But then, like with bitters, I've found my weiss and witbiers improving through the use of liquid yeasts. Whatever works.

I've found greater improvements in my brewing through paying closer attention to water profiles and using step mashes than anything else.

 

[Duffmann]

I am often in Brussels. Each visit I try to taste a new Belgian beer.

I was surprised when I brewed my first Saison with be-134 how good it was. I had a split batch with the t-58 and be-134 and both were great beers. I also wondered if liquid yeast could do better. For my hefeweizen it was a great improvement, but I don't think it will for the Belgian styles