Cleaner / Sanitiser / CleanerSanitizer Hell!

Discussion in 'General Beer Brewing Discussion' started by Pivovar, Dec 5, 2017.

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  1. Dec 5, 2017 #21

    AdeDunn

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    Unless you apply logic that is...

    Surfactants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant

    The head on beer relies upon surface tension, washing up liquid contains surfactants. Leave any traces of this behind and you're going to effect the surface tension in the bubbles, pop pop pop, your lovely head won't stay...

    Logic, you have to love it. However logic also says that if you rinse it all off it's no different to not using washing up liquid, and that oxi-clean, PBW etc also contain surfactants...

    Long story short, rinse better/more if your beer won't keep it's head.

    Now maybe we should discuss the various off flavours not rinsing well enough can leave in your beer too? :thumb:
     
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  2. Dec 5, 2017 #22

    Bernie

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    When I finish with a bottle it's rinsed three times and left to dry on a bottle tree. Similarly, with the fermenter, I clean it thoroughly so no bits of yeast are left on the side, making sure taps, lids O-rings are clean. I then only use Oxyclean on the fermenter and bottles when starting a new brew or bottling. Sometimes I might dissolve some bisulphite in a little hot water and leave it in a closed fermenter for a couple of hours. I've made nearly 30 40-pint lots and only had one bad bottle which must have gone under the radar.
    I think that excessive cleaning has diminishing returns or even unintended adverse consequences. Many organisms are floating in the air and some yeasts that come into contact with the wort are air borne or can get there carried by a fruit fly for example. That's why it's advisable not to work in draughty or windy conditions outside. Yeasts can and do live on cellar walls.
     
  3. Dec 5, 2017 #23

    MyQul

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    My understanding is that the surfacants in washing up liquid are what kills the head. Whether this has been proved or not, I dont know. Hopefully someone with a chemisty/science background can let me know
     
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  4. Dec 5, 2017 #24

    MyQul

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    Ah, someone with a bit more science knowledge than me. :thumb:
     
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  5. Dec 5, 2017 #25

    johnnyboy1965

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    Very true, but never been proven. Think highgly carbonated beer in Europe. The first thing they do is wash the glass with water, then pour
     
  6. Dec 5, 2017 #26

    Bernie

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    Surfactants in beer are what gives you head retention. Soap or detergents are surfactants with amphiphilic molecules that reduce the surface tension of the water making the bubble surface more stable. Head stability can also be increase by making the beer fizz more; it could be a gassy beer, could be forced through a sparkler of serving in a glass that nucleates the bubbles.
     
  7. Dec 5, 2017 #27

    GerritT

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    SO just rinse well after initial cleansing. I mean, that's what you do when you get out of the shower: rinse the shampoo out of your hair?
    ...
    Guys?
     
  8. Dec 5, 2017 #28

    Cwrw666

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    My cleaning regime is:
    FV, boiler, BIAB bag - wash with warm water. Nothing else. Sanitise with a kettle of boiling water.
    Bottles - rinse after use, then soak in a concentrated washing soda solution. Sanitise again with boiling water (carefully!).
     
  9. Dec 5, 2017 #29

    _jon_

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    I use PBW to clean, but I never know how much to use or how long it can soak for.. so I literally just guess the measurements with a generous pour and leave it for as long as I forget about it.. sometimes a week.

    Then I rinse and star san to sanitise.

    When cleaning Cornie's do you guys unbolt the stems and chuck them in? I don't bother, I tend to just seal it up with the star san in it, add some c02 and pump a keg through a tap.
     
  10. Dec 5, 2017 #30

    Gunge

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    I think most of you are bonkers / paranoid / just over-analyzing stuff lol! Listen 35 years in the game and I've sufficed with nuthin' more than washing-up liquid and mega-dilute thin bleach. No infections, ever. Why complicate matters?
     
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  11. Dec 6, 2017 #31

    BeerisGOD

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    could be exposure to air. Unless it was Sealed. I will always use starsan for Piece of mind but when run out i wouldnt mind trying the Vinegar and Bleach Combo.
    I think with using Syringes to get the exact 1.5 ml per Litre Required, you will have years of Usage.
     
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  12. Dec 6, 2017 #32

    Chippy_Tea

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    @Gunge I don't go overboard when cleaning I rinse my bottles as soon as they are empty and then they go in with the washing up the next morning, my FV gets a good shower and I give it scrub round on the inside with a clean dish cloth and rince, I have so far had no problems.


    .
     
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  13. Dec 6, 2017 #33

    Bigcol49

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    Hi!
    Although I'm unhappy to disparage anyone on this wonderful forum, I'm shoulder-to-shoulder with @Gunge - I know that we all push cleanliness and sanitisation, but some comments seem to be a little OCD on the subject. Airborne yeast, cellar walls, windy days - come on people, get a grip!
    Having said that, if it works, don't fix it. Everyone has their own methods and, if they produce decent beer, don't worry about it.
     
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  14. Dec 6, 2017 #34

    Bernie

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    You misunderstood my comment. I did say that cleaning to excess can have unintended or adverse consequences. Once the fermenting and bottling equipment are clean any further "infections" may come from sources like air borne or insect borne yeasts. This is well known in wines.
    "On the origins of wine yeast"
    Robert Mortimer, Mario Polsinelli
    https://doi.org/10.1016/S0923-2508(99)80036-9

    and beers
    https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/immaculate-fermentation-science-not-sorcery

    and lambic beer
    http://www.visitflanders.com/en/the...an-beer-styles/spontaneous-fermentation-beer/

    Does anyone use the old Boots bucket for their fermenting and rely on the krausen for protection?
     
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  15. Dec 6, 2017 #35

    Clint

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    It does make you think...when you see the great big open air fermenting squares. ...talk of airborne infections sounds like a rare thing..
     
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  16. Dec 6, 2017 #36

    Sadfield

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    Just because a brewery does something, it doesn't mean it's suitable for homebrewers.

    Breweries pitch enough healthy yeast from a brew at krausen, so have very little lag time. The fv is only open when at krausen, which provides protection from airborne contamination. Any contamination that does get through will be into a significantly bigger volume of wort and will have less impact. Through water treatment and mashing the wort they pitch into will be at at the correct pH to promote quick fermentation and inhibit bacterial spoilage.

    Homebrewers can open ferment, but it requires considerably more care and attention than just leaving a lid off.

    If you watch the following clip, it is clear to see how difficult it would be to get an airborne contamination in a square. As the krausen forms quickly, but also removes the top layer, and any contaminants, from the fv. The beer is then removed from the open vessel before the krausen fully drops.

    https://youtu.be/xClXKMhcFr0

    "Inspiration is the impact of a fact on a well-prepared mind" Louis Pasteur
     
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  17. Dec 6, 2017 #37

    Sadfield

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    Following best practice takes minimal effort, so why risk doing anything less.
     
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  18. Dec 6, 2017 #38

    Bigcol49

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    Hi!
    Wasn't having a pop at you personally, @Bernie
    Stress is the result of trying to control the uncontrollable.
    What can we do to avoid airborne infections? Basic hygiene and, after that, nothing!
    If there's nothing that we can do about it, why worry?
     
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  19. Dec 6, 2017 #39

    Clint

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    ...1000lbs of yeast! Wonder if they get stuck fermentation. ......
    With it measures by weight is that dry or just the weight of the starters?
     
  20. Dec 28, 2017 #40

    Talon_Ted

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    Having returned to AG brewing after a 6 year absence I am having trouble removing stains left on the inside of my old corny kegs. I used Grainfather cleaner which has brightened up the inside but not removed some stains on the side.

    Has any one any suggestions? It was post fermentation infections that made me give up last time so I am very keen to sort this out from the start! My first brew is ready to leave the fermenter today. Or was until I went to rinse out the kegs!

    Ted
     

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