Hops and utilization efficiency ect

[Covrich]

I just started trying my extract brew its only just under 3 weeks olds and still needs a bit of time to age,

Whilst I am actually impressed it really has a freshness which I just do not find as much kits I am wondering about the hop utilization.. whilst I get bitterness and aroma and some flavour from the hops it is ever so slightly less than I perhaps hoped (maybe this might change a bit once its aged) I put 50% extract in the boil and 50% (I had about 12 litres at the end of wort and added 10 water) at the end and followed to the recipe.

I also wondered what peoples opinions about using hop bags in the boil.. I did do this but wondered whether its better to chuck them in and siphon with a muslin over the autosyphon (I hear some people use twisty ties to keep them bag on..

I say all this but I tried my hobgoblin type beer last night from the hydrometer sample and thats really good hops (thats partial mash though)

I was thinking of doing an IPA next possibly AG or partial but I want to get the best out my hops for that one so wondered what peoples opinions on which works the best?

THanks in advanced for any advise / opinions offered.

 

[MyQul]

Are you diluting in the fermenter? I've never done extract brewing but I understand this is part of the process?

As a maxi biaber I dilute in the fermenter and this means I get lower hop utilization so I usually add about 5 IBU more to compensate. I tried using calculators to work out the correct IBU utilization but the results always ended up too hoppy/bitter. So I just worked how much extra to add by trial and error for my equipment

 

[GHW]

My extract brews taste quite light too. Very nice taste, but noticeably less powerful than the kits. That's not to say I prefer the kits, I dont. I wondered if it was down to two things:
1) hop utilisation; my cooker can only just keep a gently rolling boil going and I wonder whether harder boiling would get more flavour out?
2) for same the same reason I wasn't getting a hot break, wonder if that had anything to do with it too

However, by using boiling kettle water (rather than heating water from the hot tap) I did manage a break with my galaxy, and kept it at a good roll. Haven't tasted it yet though...

Also, my amarillo has developed depth of flavour in the bottle, so give it more time. Mine got better after about 6-8 weeks.

 

[Covrich]

Are you diluting in the fermenter? I've never done extract brewing but I understand this is part of the process?

As a maxi biaber I dilute in the fermenter and this means I get lower hop utilization so I usually add about 5 IBU more to compensate. I tried using calculators to work out the correct IBU utilization but the results always ended up too hoppy/bitter. So I just worked how much extra to add by trial and error for my equipment

Yup I had a 15 liter pot which went down to about 12 ish by the time the boil was finished and the remainder topped up on the FV..

I was aware that this affects hop utilization and like you said I wanted to try and calculate to compensate but it seemed a bit complex so I just threw a few extra grams of hops in and I also bunged half my extract in post boil..

I used hop bags but I wonder whether leaving them loose might improve it.

I havent had a proper taste but my latest one was a patrial mash and although the effieicny was a bit low for my first go.. the DME all went in post boil, I also upped the hops a bit.

I am thinkin of getting a boiler and doing biab soon anyway but still not sure whether to just bung the hops in or bag them up?

 

[Covrich]

My extract brews taste quite light too. Very nice taste, but noticeably less powerful than the kits. That's not to say I prefer the kits, I dont. I wondered if it was down to two things:
1) hop utilisation; my cooker can only just keep a gently rolling boil going and I wonder whether harder boiling would get more flavour out?
2) for same the same reason I wasn't getting a hot break, wonder if that had anything to do with it too

However, by using boiling kettle water (rather than heating water from the hot tap) I did manage a break with my galaxy, and kept it at a good roll. Haven't tasted it yet though...

Also, my amarillo has developed depth of flavour in the bottle, so give it more time. Mine got better after about 6-8 weeks.

Thanks, sounds like we share the same kind of not problem but had the same thought. Still as you say nice but just wanted that bit of extra hops.

Will see like you say how it develops in a few weesks :drink:

: Cheers guys

 

[MyQul]

I used hop bags but I wonder whether leaving them loose might improve it.

I am thinkin of getting a boiler and doing biab soon anyway but still not sure whether to just bung the hops in or bag them up?

Never used a hop bag myself so don't know whether leaving the hops loose is better. I just pass everything through a seive (as well as a paint strainer) to remove all the hop debris.

 

[GHW]

Seems odd that topping up to required length would affect utilisation? All the action has happened by the time you dilute. Wouldn't you just extract the same amount of flavour in a smaller boil volume and then dilute the 'concetrate'?

That said, most extract recipes (and brew books) I've seen do suggest boiling the full volume so perhaps that is the issue.

I only have a 12L pot so do a 6L boil. Maybe a solution is to do shorter brew lengths. Cov you could probably just about do a 10 L boil in your pan. Try doing a 10L brew so you don't need to dilute in the fv and see if it comes out better. It's a slow burn experiment I know, but worth it in the long run.

 

[MyQul]

Seems odd that topping up to required length would affect utilisation? All the action has happened by the time you dilute. Wouldn't you just extract the same amount of flavour in a smaller boil volume and then dilute the 'concetrate'?

That said, most extract recipes (and brew books) I've seen do suggest boiling the full volume so perhaps that is the issue.

Your right, seems a bit odd doesn't it? When I first started doing maxi biab I didn't know anything about this lower utilization and couldn't work out why my bitters were too sweet (funnily enough I didn't seem to notice with stouts and porters).

I don't know the exact scientific reason but its something to do with the fact its a concentated boil - less hop oils/compounds get extracted from the hops

 

[Covrich]

Never used a hop bag myself so don't know whether leaving the hops loose is better. I just pass everything through a seive (as well as a paint strainer) to remove all the hop debris.

Probably a stupid question but do you sanitise the sieve / strainer bag? I assume you pour from the pot? I have been siphoning mine.. maybe I over complicated it :lol:

If I can improve my efficiency which I think I can I may try a 10-12 litre biab next and chuck the hops in direct. put a grain bag over the FV and pour it straight in Although I am thinking of getting a boiler for full volume anyway but its a good way to experiment.

 

[MyQul]

Probably a stupid question but do you sanitise the sieve / strainer bag? I assume you pour from the pot? I have been siphoning mine.. maybe I over complicated it :lol:

If I can improve my efficiency which I think I can I may try a 10-12 litre biab next and chuck the hops in direct. put a grain bag over the FV and pour it straight in Although I am thinking of getting a boiler for full volume anyway but its a good way to experiment.

Not a stupid Q at all as I do sanitise both the seive and the little jug I use to pour the wort with. Tbh, it a bit belt and braces sanitising the sieve/jug as the wort is boiling hot (I no chill in the FV) and the boiling wort probably sanitises both the jug and the seive as I'm using it.

I'm not sure about efficiency vis a vis extract but my last biab I aimed for 23L and my efficiency was so good when it came to dilution I ended up with 24L. I attribute this to dunk sparging and letting everything lauter out the bag for 30 mins after the sparge using a bucket and the bag sitting on a colender which I've just started doing (using the colender, i mean as I've almost always dunk sparged)

 

[melotone]

Hi, we've had experience with both ways of boiling the hops. In a small cotton bag and - after we developed a filtering device we just chucked them in and let the hops boil freely in the wort. Our feeling is you get more taste out of your hops this way. BTW we brew the old fashioned way with grains in a 20l old cooking kettle. We just made a 15l batch of Belgian ale.
Cheers

 

[rodwha]

What I've been told by a moderator on an American forum is that wort can't absorb more than 100 IBU's. And if you dilute, say 50%, you cut the IBU's by 50% as well. I'd assume it's linear and that 25% top off reduces the IBU's by 25%.

I use muslin bags, but haven't tried anything else to compare it to. I don't see why they'd hinder anything as long as they aren't stuffed.

 

[clibit]

Bags are fine as long as the bag is much bigger than the quantity of hops inside it. If that makes sense. :-)

 

[Covrich]

I actually found my Partial mash seems to have better hop utilization than my extract.

This is probably down to the fact one of my hop bags came open at the flame out AND my mash efficiency was lower than expected which I think would have aided it (as I added the 1.5kgs of DME at flame out).

I am going to try loose hops next time around or I am going to increase the %age a bit more.

 

[cheshirehomebrew]

Bags are fine as long as the bag is much bigger than the quantity of hops inside it. If that makes sense. :-)

perfect sense, thats how I dry hop !