Murky due to low gravity?

[Likbas]

Same yeast, same water, same malt combination. Left a Bitter with 1.049OG and right a Bitter with 1.035OG.

I think it's the Water, because of the ph level. Most Water in germany has more than PH7. Our has PH8,64. The more of malts in the stronger Bitter balance mash and wort PH, but not enough in the ordinary Bitter. I try to compensate it with some gypsum. But it wouldn't helps in the low gravity bitter.

In taste: the 1.049OG Bitter is well tasty. The 1.035OG is sharp and unround. It's my second low gravity bitter, the previous has it too and I must dispose it, it was not drinkable. :-( That hurts.

Is it a problem of water treatment? Or anything else? Have anyone the same problem? Or could solve it?

 

[ACBEV]

Is it a problem of water treatment?

I adjust my brew water PH before brewing. I treat 35 liters with phosphoric acid (80%) to bring the PH down. My water PH is 6.2, but this is too high for a light beer.

In my case I brew an ordinary bitter (1.030 - 3.0 abv), for this beer I adjust the PH of my brew water from 6.2 to 5.6 (8.5ml phosphoric acid in 35 liter of brew water). There is enough acidity in the malt to bring the PH down a bit more in the mash.

Also my water is very hard and has low magnesium, so I add the following to my brew water for ordinary bitter...

2.7g Gypsum
2.4g Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate)
2.1g Salt (sodium chloride)

Lastly... I use Wyeast London Ale III which clears nicely.

 

[peebee]

Careful. Source water pH is not a reliable indicator of what the mash pH will be.

I've very soft water. It has a pH of 7.4-7.6 (usually). I would add 0.4 millilitres of phosphoric acid to 50-60 litres of this water and the pH would drop to less than 6. The water company may add minute amounts of "adjustment" to keep the pH within an acceptable range (between 6.5 and 9.5 according to my water company Web site).

Calcium salts (like gypsum) will help pH to reduce in the mash (the salts are not acid, but they play a part in the chemistry that creates acids), acids like phosphoric will do a more easily predictable job. Using acid does really need a calculator (there is one linked on this site) because it is added to get the mash to a predicted pH, not the water.

Says me, who is blundering about aimlessly with mash pHs of 4.9-5.1 at the moment.

 

[Likbas]

Also my water is very hard and has low magnesium, so I add the following to my brew water for ordinary bitter...

You have hard water and make it more hard? Burtonizing?

My water, each in mg/l:

24 Ca
12 Mg
14 Na

63 HCO3
28 Chloride
55 Sulphate

PH8,64

It's soft(and tasty!), but very alkaline!

I bought a PH meter and some lactic acid. Yes, also I can use hydrochloric acid (increase chloride) or sulphuric acid (increase sulphate) or phosphoric acid (increase phosphate), Lactic acid increase lactate.

Germans use mostly lactic acid or sour malt (with lactic bacteria treated pilsner malt).

2.7g Gypsum
2.4g Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate)
2.1g Salt (sodium chloride)

Is epsom salt really tasteable?

I would use Calcium chloride for increasing chloride, if depends.

I treat 35 liters with phosphoric acid (80%) to bring the PH down.

H2SO4 and HCl is well, but with more than 10% concentration it is some dangerours! We should never use nitric acid, you get nitrates in your beer, that's very bad for the yeast and your health. Phosphoric acid is helpful for yeast. Is this the standard acid in comparsiopn to our lactic acid, who use britains for their beer?

My water PH is 6.2, but this is too high for a light beer.

Your water is naturally much acid. I think it's well enough for any low gravity beer style. My water is 8,64 that's a great difference. It sounds like, that your water are naturally perfect for british beer.

Says me, who is blundering about aimlessly with mash pHs of 4.9-5.1 at the moment.

I think so to. PH 4.9-5.1 is very much acid! The normal mash acid is PH5.4-5.6.

 

[peebee]

… I think so to. PH 4.9-5.1 is very much acid! The normal mash acid is PH5.4-5.6.

I know. I was using it as an example of the tap water pH having nothing to do with the mash pH. In my last mash it had a lot of this (untreated) water at over 5 litres water to 1Kg grain. The mash pH that day was 5.0. The water in the tap that day tested as pH8.4.

You have said your water has 63ppm bicarbonate. My water has not much more than 63ppm total dissolved solids.




We British use strong acids a lot to treat our water. I do not know for how long as new laws regulating the sale of strong acids have just been passed.

We British also use a lot of Magnesium salts to treat our water. The beer doesn't need it because the malt provides enough Magnesium, but it is a good alternative to Calcium salts if we think there is already enough Calcium. Magnesium salts are also much easier to dissolve (e.g. gypsum can be very difficult).

We British may also use a lot of sodium salts. Often more than some say is "too much". But it is what we are used to.

I would be surprised if water is the source of your beer problems. But if you correct your water and still have not found a solution then you will know for sure and can look for something else.

 

[peebee]

A possible reason: With a smaller amount of grain and the moderate bicarbonate levels you may be mashing at quite high a pH? High bicarbonate levels might carry over to the beer (I doubt it, because the boil will cause much of it to disappear). A lower pH will keep some bacteria from becoming a problem. What is the mash pH of these beers? It might be interesting to know the pH of the finished beer.


To make you feel better here's a picture of my very cloudy low-gravity beer:

Well it has only been bottled for six days. "Low gravity"? 1.037 perhaps … no. 1.027? No. Try 1.007, and it was only made seven days ago (mashed at pH5.0!).

The trees in the background should make you feel at home - they are in Germany! Well it's actually the next-door neighbour's garden; it's a holiday home and the owners are German. They visit occasionally.

 

[ACBEV]

@Likbas I use this water calc. to work out my chemical additions...
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
Then I put the resulting water profile into Brewers Friend Water Chemistry - Advanced calc to check the results and to calculate mash PH and any acid additions...
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator
I like it because it does not hurt my brain to calculate water chemistry and the resulting beer tastes good.

You have hard water and make it more hard? Burtonizing?

It may seem so! but there is some trading off between; phosphoric acid - Gypsum - Epsom Salt - Salt... and my water to get to the desired water profile for the type of beer.

Using my hacked together method with your water and assuming your grist is 3000g English pale malt and 200g crystal 100 malt (23 liter batch @ 1.035), I would treat 35 liters of brew water with the following...

Calcium Sulphate: 13.7g
Calcium Chloride: 5g
Sodium Chloride: 2.3g
Phosphoric Acid (80%): 8ml

The estimated mash PH would be 5.27

Edit... This would be for bitter (other styles would be different)

 

[Likbas]

Another question: If I want to use some wheat malt in an Ale (as it sometimes usually in britain), what's with proteins? Do I have to do a protein rest or may I mash with single infusion? How good is british wheat malt modified? As like Pale Malt too? I remember I had a Bitter with 5% british wheat malt and I could see some haze at the bottle. How does it british brewers?

 

[peebee]

I've never done a "protein rest" when using wheat malt. You may only be adding 5%, 10% or 15% wheat malt to an ale recipe, nothing like the amounts used in a cloudy wheat beer. A few years ago all my bitters had a bit of wheat malt.

But I used to make wheat beers and was always disappointed because they always came out clear and never hazy. I've only used British wheat malt which might make a difference. British wheat never had enough protein to even make bread, all our bread wheat came from Canada (things change and Britain can use some British wheat varieties now). British wheat made biscuits.

I think it is correct to say virtually all British commercial beer is made using single infusion mashes (including the awful British "lagers").

 

[Likbas]

I've never done a "protein rest" when using wheat malt. You may only be adding 5%, 10% or 15% wheat malt to an ale recipe, nothing like the amounts used in a cloudy wheat beer. A few years ago all my bitters had a bit of wheat malt.

But I used to make wheat beers and was always disappointed because they always came out clear and never hazy. I've only used British wheat malt which might make a difference. British wheat never had enough protein to even make bread, all our bread wheat came from Canada (things change and Britain can use some British wheat varieties now). British wheat made biscuits.

I think it is correct to say virtually all British commercial beer is made using single infusion mashes (including the awful British "lagers").

Hmmm could try a protein rest at 55°C and infuse some boiling water to come at 78°C and fall then to 68°C. But's it sounds like unusually. What's your mash time and malt to water ratio?

What's with Rye Ale? Protein and glucanase rest? I think they have to do a multi infusion in a Rye Ale, because of the special properties of rye. I think you know what I mean. I brewed with rye and can say rye is like a ugly welsh sheep :-DDD

 

[peebee]

Heretic. Welsh sheep are pretty and very intelligent .

I'm planning on trying rye malt and I know it can be very gloopy. But I'm British! So I will only be using single infusion mashes. This is what I'm looking at after someone kindly posted it in another of my threads: https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2018/07/rye-neipa-with-mosaic-and-hallertau.html?m=1

But if anyone else has got anything to add about rye malt …



(EDIT: Oh, the question … About 2-2.5 litres per kilo i.e. fairly stiff, for 75-90 minutes).

 

[Likbas]

Heretic. Welsh sheep are pretty and very intelligent .

I knew it! Pretty sheeps ♥ "ouhhhh my daisy I love you sooo much you are so fluffy *.*" ;-) You are soooo sweet peebee.

Edit: You have right, no sheep could be so much ugly as Angela Merkel :-D

But I'm British! So I will only be using single infusion mashes

I have an idea! You mash in with 78°C water and wait when it falls to 57-55°C, so you have your protein rest. And with glucanase rest make it too at 37°C.
Disadvantage, you beer could be too dry because a too long time at the ~63°C area. You can mix cold water to skip this area.

Another idea, you soak the crushed malt in some 55°C water and wait to fall it to ~35°C. Then you make the main infusion with boiling water to your 78°C. The "first infusion" isn't an infusion, you only soak it like pulses. Autosuggest you self, thereby it's less hard. Otherwise, it's not easy to be british and obey the "british single-mash rule" (in comparsion to ridiculously "bavarian purity law").


Edit: https://byo.com/article/brewing-with-wheat/

 

[Likbas]

(EDIT: Oh, the question … About 2-2.5 litres per kilo

Thats very thick. 2:1 is the minimum for first infusion. I use 2:1 (mash in at ~50°C) for any multi-step infusion beers(mostly german), plus two(63°C and 72°C) infusions combined 4-4,5:1. At decoction Beers I mash in with 3:1 (37°C) and a second infusion(~50°C), then two decoctions (63°C and 72°C) combined 4,5:1 (while boiling the partial thick mash some water evaporate so I get effectivley 4:1 or less). In decoctions it's important to soak the malt some time at 37°C because dissolve away the encyms in water. If you don't, you get fast a lack of encyms after the first boil of the thick mash. In single infusions I take a 4-5:1 ratio(5 for pale ales, 4 for darker ales) - if I less, I can't hold the temperature long enough for all that my lauter tun is isolated with foam. A single infusion is very depend of the environmental temperature and bad to forecast how fast is falling the mash temperature to a specific point. If I brew with (single or multi)infusion method, I mash in directly in my lauter tun. If I brew via decoction, I mash in directly in my kettle or in an external bucket. There's two methods for a decoction: "siphon the thin mash from the kettle method" or "prescind the thick mash from the bucket method". Brewing with decoction is very ancient and makes much of fun.You have more contact to your mash and it is more directly brewing process. If I am in Wales, we can make a decoction beer together ;-)

 

[peebee]

Thats very thick. 2:1 is the minimum for first infusion. …

That all seems like a lot of work. "Makes much of fun" - perhaps it does, if you like making a lot of mess and you have a very tolerant wife? My brewery (which is plumbed in, and fixed in place) simply cannot do decoction mashes, but I've done a few multi-step infusion mashes.

… I have an idea! You mash in with 78°C water and wait when it falls to 57-55°C, so you have your protein rest. …

I'm not sure this will work. You can step the temperature of a mash up, but not down. The enzymes that work best at a cooler temperature are quickly destroyed by warmer temperatures. In a mash the temperature that an enzyme works "best" is the temperature it works "fastest" without destroying the enzyme too fast (the mash temperatures are a compromise, the "right" temperature does slowly destroy the enzyme).

… Welsh sheep are pretty and very intelligent …

That is a trick I learnt at a young age: If you mention sheep are intelligent people quickly stop taking you seriously! Actually sheep are very under-rated and are very clever and … hey? Where has everyone gone? … come baack ...

 

[Likbas]

That all seems like a lot of work

Indeed.

"Makes much of fun" - perhaps it does, if you like making a lot of mess

Not really, only if you have parkinson

you have a very tolerant wife?

What!? Home brewers have wife!? Really???

My brewery (which is plumbed in, and fixed in place) simply cannot do decoction mashes

You only need a kettle which you also boil your wort. And slit dipper or a plastic pot with handle. That's enough for decoction.

I'm not sure this will work. You can step the temperature of a mash up, but not down. The enzymes that work best at a cooler temperature are quickly destroyed by warmer temperatures.

That's a myth. Outside of the temperature ranges the enzyms will be only inactive. The enzyms are very robust and destroyed if you boil. If you mash in with 78°C or 81°C the crushed malts (with environmental temperature) cool the mash down. In decoction you store out the high enzymic thin wort and boil the low enzymic thick wort. But you must give the whole wort enough time to desolve the enzyms from the crushed grain intgo the water okay? After boiling you mix it for the next rest together and so on. You can make a rest from up to down (decreasing single step infusion) or from down to up (multi step infusion and decoctions) it's equal. Of course if you can, you can hold the temperature at an exact "middle" temperature between 63°C and 72°C. But that is very difficult with our small amounts of mash, because of the small thermal capacity of the mash and low isolation options for the mash tun.

 

[Likbas]

So I did it again ;-D

I brewed a third low gravity bitter, now with treated water with PH6.5 and with some gypsum and little bit calciumchloride. I think it is murky again.

What did I wrong? It's the mash? To hot mash in water? Or should I wait to 52°C for a protein rest? I though a portein rest isn't needed with high modified british barley malts? Need my water really more lower PH than 6.5?

 

[ACBEV]

I don't know whats wrong... But for golden and blonde ales I get my brew water PH down to 5.5 for mashing. At the other end of the scale i.e. stout and porter a brew water PH of 6.5 would be fine for mashing. I'm guessing with a pale low gravity beer your outside optimum mash PH range.

I think it might be worth a test to see... Mash at 67c with your water PH adjusted to 5.5.

 

[peebee]

I get the impression folk are talking about the pH of their water (whether treated or not), not the pH of the mixed mash?

If I'm wrong and you are quoting the pH of the mash, please accept my apologies. It's what water treatment is all about - striving for a particular "optimum" mash pH (and secondly, especially if British; with enough salts to influence the perceived flavour).

If I'm correct; stop it!

pH is a measure of ion balance or proportion (specifically H+ and OH- ions, it is ph7 when there is an equal amount of each), it is not a measure of how much of something is creating those ions, or how many of those ions there actually is. So quoting the pH of your water, perhaps because it has been treated with x,y,z grams of this and that, is meaningless to anyone who does not have exactly the same water.

Making this distinction is important to stop other readers going away with the wrong ideas.

 

[Likbas]

I meant the PH of the water. Should I measure the mash PH?

I think I could try to mash in with not so hot water and wait to fall the temperature to 52°C for a little bit protein rest. Also I want to buy a better lauter system for more clear wort.

 

[peebee]

I meant the PH of the water. Should I measure the mash PH?...

Yes! You can ignore the source water pH.

My own water was normally pH7.5. Last time I measured it was 8.5. I doubt much actually changed, but we had a bit of a drought which probably messed with the pH. The Water Company tries to keep the pH between certain limits and possibly overdid the correction by a miniscule amount (moorland water is typically acidic, in the worst cases the water turns brown due to humic acid). pH8.5? Seems very alkaline? Except my last mash was just as acid at pH5.0, like the ones before it (I haven't figured why my mash measures so acid yet).

When sparging it is preferable to have the actual water's pH below pH6 or else be careful not to over-sparge because there is a danger of washing out undesirable components (like tannins). It's okay to start with because there are enough things in the mash to buffer the deluge of sparge water and keep the pH below 6. My own water, even at pH8.5, is never a problem - I could acidify it; in 50 litres it needs just 0.1ml of 80% phosphoric acid to get it below pH6.