ZInc - problem or not?

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Just been reading on Bru'n Water about the necessity of adding Zinc to RO-filtered water. "An ion that is critically important for yeast health is zinc. Typical wort provides everything yeast need for their metabolism, except zinc"

Ermmmm... OK, well fair enough, but I brew with 100% RO + DI filtered water adding just a spoonful of Epsom salts and a dash of table salt; and both my fermentations to date (AG using SO-4, one via a starter) have gone like a runaway train.

So I'm not sure whether this is a 'thing' or not tbh

 

[strange-steve]

Using 100% RO water just isn't a good idea in general and wasn't really a thing until our American friends started doing it. A much better approach would be to learn to use your tap water, which may include dilution with RO, but certainly not 100%.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Using 100% RO water just isn't a good idea in general

Steve you'd be the last person I'd argue with on water, but I'd love to understand why? Just seems like a good blank canvas...
My problem with the tap water here (St Albans) is that it has insane levels of Calcium

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Full water report here
Last three columns are the min/mean/max of samples

 

[Sadfield]

That's a nice amount of calcium, the alkalinity is the issue. Treating with CRS(AMS) would be a better option as it would raise the chloride and sulphate levels to that of a pretty decent pale ale profile without much need further additions, and stripping out zinc, etc. Which highlights why RO isn't a great option, it strips out more than can be added back, including things that don't really affect the brewing process, but add character.

 

[strange-steve]

Just seems like a good blank canvas...

That's exactly the problem, all those various minerals almost certainly do more good than harm, not just as micronutrients for the yeast, but for flavour. I went through a period a few years ago of using very low mineral water (100% RO with a small salt addition) as per the advice of a prominent US water expert, and honestly every beer was just lacking in flavour.

Currently I'm doing the opposite, using mineral profiles that some would say will give "minerally" beer and I'm really liking the results. My last stout for example, had around 250ppm chloride and near 200ppm calcium.

My problem with the tap water here (St Albans) is that it has insane levels of Calcium

You have 145ppm calcium which absolutely isn't insane. Is it more than you need? Probably, but is it too much? Nope.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Well it'd certainly be less hassle, so I'll order some CRS and give it a try.
However, that still leaves the Zinc question... if it's so 'critical' then how come I seem to be able to remove it without any issues?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Just for the avoidance of any impression to the contrary, I'm really appreciative of the advice here by the way - I've been reading the 'beginners water treatment' thread but the more I read the more confusing it seems :-(
I'm trying to prepare for brewing the Best Bitter recipe that @Galena suggested to me, where (s)he says:

"I went for a Burton style profile with a Chloride/Sulphate Ratio of 1:5.6 with the following Profile
Ca188, Mg 41, Na, 47, Cl 85, SO4 483, HCO3 116
The result was a lovely bitter but perhaps a slight bit minerally so next batch I will tone it down slightly trying to hit 150 for calcium and try and bring down the sulphate to around 400 keeping the Chloride to Sulphate ratio somewhere in the same ball park."

OMG that's all greek to me LoL

 

[Sadfield]

Dry yeast tends to be enriched with all the nutrients it needs. I think the issue with zinc is when not fermenting all malt worts.

 

[Pennine]

it is also mentioned zinc becomes more important in subsequent uses not the initial batch. i still use it every batch though. bought a cheap bottle from amazon and a couple of drops into the fermenter is pretty simple. never have noticed a difference when i forget about it though. i also dont reuse yeast for more 2-3 batches at the most and usually pitch fresh. i also rehydrate every pack of dry yeast i use.

 

[strange-steve]

As @Sadfield says, if you used CRS to reduce the bicarbonate to around 30ppm then this would add a decent amount of both chloride and sulphate without affecting the calcium. Running that through my calculator, an addition of 0.97ml/l of CRS would give the following approximate profile:

145ppm calcium
130ppm sulphate
120ppm chloride
25ppm alkalinity as CaCO3

This isn't a bad profile for a pale ale, maybe a little gypsum if you wanted to increase the sulphate.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Thanks @strange-steve - I was just trying to use the Bru'n Water calc, for comparison with yours but I'm confused as to why there are two columns for the ion concentration inputs (any idea?) and it doesn't like my figures :-(

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Running that through my calculator, an addition of 0.97ml/l of CRS

Thank you so much - CRS is on order

 

[strange-steve]

Thanks @strange-steve - I was just trying to use the Bru'n Water calc, for comparison with yours but I'm confused as to why there are two columns for the ion concentration inputs (any idea?) and it doesn't like my figures :-(

View attachment 32535

The two columns are cations and anions, you don't really need to worry about that, but you've input the values incorrectly which is why you're getting the error. From your report your starting values are:

145 calcium
30 sodium
333 bicarbonate
42 sulphate
55 chloride
31 nitrate

Leave everything else at 0 and see if it balances.

 

[An Ankoù]

Used to have some seriously hard water in Poole. Used to have to change the shower heater unit every couple of years at least. Great for some beers and sometimes it needed reducing. CRS is the boy for the job. For Pilsner, though, I used to collect rainwater and add nothing. I don't recall having any problems. I guess the malt provides much of the necessary mineral content.

 

[matt76]

FWIW @The-Engineer-That-Brews I think your water is ok...

I think I'm reading the water report right, in particular alkalinity - and in that case you're water really isn't very different from mine here in Berkshire...

And mine seems particularly suited to darker beers, but seems to make a perfectly acceptable Pilsner, Helles, etc. too.

It does takea bit of getting your head around, but I'm sure you'll eventually get the hang of it with a little practice.

The rule of thumb I came down to after a few goes (to keep things simple!) was for hoppy beers I'd add CRS and a little gypsum, and for maltier beers a little lactic acid and CaCl (obviously you'd need to use a water calculator for precise amounts for your water and batch size).

More recently, similar to what @strange-steve has already suggested I've started to push the mineral content a bit more, but I suspect you could come up with a simple rule of thumb similar to above and end up pretty close to where you want to be.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

The two columns are cations and anions

AHhhh now it makes sense... thanks so much! I hadn't understood that layout at all

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

OK - I'm now starting to understand how to use the tools... very clever, very interesting
I can also see that having a source of (in effect) distilled water 'on tap' from the RO+DI system might open up a few more options for reducing the concentration of a particular element - for example:

Mind you, the whole idea of 'diluting' tap water with... more water... isn't something that I'd normally imagine myself doing

 

[foxy]

I think if you read further into what Martin Brungard says the amount of zinc is immeasurable on a home brew scale, so yeast nutrient is the go too. Or you could always toss an oyster into the primary.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

toss an oyster into the primary.