Regulators as "Spunding" Valves

F00b4r said:

... so might get one as they seem to do away with the need to hook up a regulator.

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What's the difference with the NR200s I posted? I think you meant "do away with the need to hook up a CO2 cylinder". Although if I got off me bum perhaps I could figure out how to dispense with the CO2 cylinder for using NR200s in this mode.

Snazzy disconnect. Except https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/stainless-ball-lock-disconnect-liquid/. And I use pin-lock anyway. (EDIT: I'm probably wrong, they seem to make those disconnects in a variety of flavours https://blog.kegoutlet.com/stainless-steel-disconnects-conry-kegs/).

Looks a bit like the AP100s I tried to use; except what you've got must work, the AP100s were a bit of a lame duck for me. I guess the tube is optional and just allows the venting gas to be redirected? Look forward to hearing how you got on with it. Although you won't persuade me to fork out for yet another spunding valve. Was yours cheap?

Did you check the accuracy of your gauges?

foxy said:

Did you check the accuracy of your gauges?

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Who are you asking?

If you ask me I'll come back with all these gauges are pretty naff; what do you expect for less than a tenner. But they usually give a rough idea, within 1 or 2 psi (usually!). I know the two on my NR200s read within 1/2psi of each other.

Because they are naff you don't find any reading less than 15psi (1BAR) - unless you are willing to fork out a small fortune. I'd find some 5-10psi gauges (panel mount) really handy.

peebee said:

What's the difference with the NR200s I posted? I think you meant "do away with the need to hook up a CO2 cylinder". Although if I got off me bum perhaps I could figure out how to dispense with the CO2 cylinder for using NR200s in this mode.

Snazzy disconnect. Except https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/stainless-ball-lock-disconnect-liquid/. And I use pin-lock anyway. (EDIT: I'm probably wrong, they seem to make those disconnects in a variety of flavours https://blog.kegoutlet.com/stainless-steel-disconnects-conry-kegs/).

Looks a bit like the AP100s I tried to use; except what you've got must work, the AP100s were a bit of a lame duck for me. I guess the tube is optional and just allows the venting gas to be redirected? Look forward to hearing how you got on with it. Although you won't persuade me to fork out for yet another spunding valve. Was yours cheap?

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Having to tie up either my CO2 cylinder or another regulator is expensive and a PITA, although the former would be worse.

As to the difference to the regulators you have posted so far, this is based upon a customised Airtrol RV-5300 PRV with the diaphragm/spring configured for this use ("a responsive diaphragm normally used for 0-15psi range but with a spring used for 0-30psi to give the responsiveness/range best suited for homebrewing").

The is actually an output port (for redirecting the CO2 eg for capture, purging kegs or release, although you can also use the tubing to stick into water to ensure you set the gauge very accurately) and I think it was mentioned that the other port can be used to connect a second keg/unitank (would have to check this though).

It was £35, INCLUDING shipping, but that was to a USA address. Oh and the stainless disconnect was optional, I could have knocked $10 off if I had taken the standard plastic one but I've always been curious as to what they were like.

Given that I can set the gauge accurately and not then have to calculate a percentage over that at which it will vent, as with the PRV's and that it is standalone, I think it is good value. That said it would be more expensive to ship to the UK and you have already mentioned earlier in the thread that these Aurtrol PRV's are very expensive to buy here to DIY a version.

I'm planning on using it tonight so we will see how good it is in reality over the next couple of weeks but I think I am very likely to be getting rid of my bog standard spunding valve so should recover a fair chunk of the cost too.

peebee said:

Who are you asking?

If you ask me I'll come back with all these gauges are pretty naff; what do you expect for less than a tenner. But they usually give a rough idea, within 1 or 2 psi (usually!). I know the two on my NR200s read within 1/2psi of each other.

Because they are naff you don't find any reading less than 15psi (1BAR) - unless you are willing to fork out a small fortune. I'd find some 5-10psi gauges (panel mount) really handy.

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I was asking because those cheap gauges don't become anywhere near accurate until they hit 20 - 25 psi. Measuring low psi you will need a good reliable gauge.

Is accurately knowing the psi relevant? I don't see that a couple of Psi difference as being that critical, even when carbonating. I know I can't distinguish between 1.9 and 2.0 vols of co2. This is more an issue of having a valve that can be trusted to open and close at the same arbitrary point, IMO.

Saying that, I'm beginning to think that even with their idiosyncrasies, poppet valves offer the best value solution. Particularly if more than one spunding valve is required.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

peebee said:

... Because they are naff you don't find any reading less than 15psi (1BAR) - unless you are willing to fork out a small fortune. I'd find some 5-10psi gauges (panel mount) really handy.

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Sorry, that wasn't too clear. I meant "... don't find any reading a smaller than 0-15psi range". And it was a sort of challenge; I'd really like someone to suggest where to get 0-5 or 0-10psi panel mount gauges (why? It would be reassuring to see the gauge just move a bit when dealing with only 1/2psi in a keg).

F00b4r said:

Having to tie up either my CO2 cylinder or another regulator is expensive and a PITA, although the former would be worse.
...
Given that I can set the gauge accurately and not then have to calculate a percentage over that at which it will vent, as with the PRV's and that it is standalone, I think it is good value. That said it would be more expensive to ship to the UK and you have already mentioned earlier in the thread that these Aurtrol PRV's are very expensive to buy here to DIY a version. ...

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Apologies. I forget for most people saying a second CO2 cylinder is the same as saying a second regulator. And having a second regulator would be a PITA. Because I use cheap fixed output regulators (as primaries) it's easy to think everyone has this convenience (I have 3 primary regulators; 4 including my "obsolete" welding regulator).

As for setting the gauge accurately - good luck, setting up the AP100 PRVs was a right pain. Setting PRVs is a pain 'cos you have to arrange a "reference" pressurised vessel to set the gauge against. With regulators, tied to a CO2 cylinder, there's no such faffing (think how you set up your keg regulator). And judging the extra over-pressure to get the desired setting (accuracy is not important) is hardly taxing. Using those devices over my idea of using regulators has advantages, but setting the gauge aint one of them.

But if I'm going to recommend the NR200s I really do need to sort out that "connected to a cylinder" conundrum.

Apologies. I forget for most people saying a second CO2 cylinder is the same as saying a second regulator. And having a second regulator would be a PITA. Because I use cheap fixed output regulators (as primaries) it's easy to think everyone has this convenience (I have 3 primary regulators; 4 including my "obsolete" welding regulator).

As for setting the gauge accurately - good luck, setting up the AP100 PRVs was a right pain. Setting PRVs is a pain 'cos you have to arrange a "reference" pressurised vessel to set the gauge against. With regulators, tied to a CO2 cylinder, there's no such faffing (think how you set up your keg regulator). And judging the extra over-pressure to get the desired setting (accuracy is not important) is hardly taxing. Using those devices over my idea of using regulators has advantages, but setting the gauge aint one of them.

But if I'm going to recommend the NR200s I really do need to sort out that "connected to a cylinder" conundrum.

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Only a pain to set if you don't have a ball lock gas disconnect and a carbonation cap, if you have these it only takes a couple of minutes at most. The output that takes tubing also seems to be useful in this regard as you put the tubing in water and the bubbling does make it easy to determine levels.
With the AP100 you are assuming that you know the relationship (maybe correctly) between the value you set on the gauge and what it will actually relieve at, for me that's a bit of an ugly hack and something easily forgotten at some point when it might matter (possibly changing a beer significantly if fermenting under pressure). Much better to just set the real value that you want.

Good luck with solving the need for it to be connected to another cylinder though as that's the real Achilles heel at the moment, the gauge reading off the required value some people will probably happily live with but needing another cylinder is probably a step too far for most (cost, space, etc).

F00b4r said:

Only a pain to set if you don't have a ball lock gas disconnect and a carbonation cap, if you have these it only takes a couple of minutes at most. The output that takes tubing also seems to be useful in this regard as you put the tubing in water and the bubbling does make it easy to determine levels.
With the AP100 you are assuming that you know the relationship (maybe correctly) between the value you set on the gauge and what it will actually relieve at, for me that's a bit of an ugly hack and something easily forgotten at some point when it might matter (possibly changing a beer significantly if fermenting under pressure). Much better to just set the real value that you want.

Good luck with solving the need for it to be connected to another cylinder though as that's the real Achilles heel at the moment, the gauge reading off the required value some people will probably happily live with but needing another cylinder is probably a step too far for most (cost, space, etc).

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Yes, I guess you know I use pin-locks (some of the time). Bit of a poke in the eye that.

Setting a regulator is worth mentioning. With the output sealed with a disconnect (not connected to a keg) the thumbwheel is just turned to get the desired setting (always better to adjust pressure up, not down, so screw down the regulator and vent the disconnect before proceeding). Most people adjust them this way. But I notice this method always errs on the high side. My belief is it takes a moment for a regulator to seal, and just a fraction of a second will cause such a tiny volume to over-pressure? Anyway, I'll still argue it's no big task to judge the regulator will vent at 2/3rds again of the set value (so set at 6psi it will roughly vent at 10psi, accuracy isn't important, only after consistency which the NS200 seems to give - 2/3rd over-pressure is what I estimate using a NS200, any other relieving regulator will require figuring out yourself, or else buy the device "Foob4r" is championing).

I think you ("Foob4r") meant NS200 when you referred to AP100 above. The AP100 is a PRV, and what's set on the gauge is where it vents. But the AP100s had tiny leaks (both I had did) that wouldn't be a problem for a replenishing pneumatic system, but was a nail-in-the-coffin when it came to using them as spunding valves.

I'll probably never get around to figuring how to dispense with the CO2 cylinder when using NS200s as a spunding valve. I'm not in the pay of "Shako", nor would they approve of using their regulators this way.