BIAB is superior............

[Duxuk]

..........to other methods. Or is it?????????
I'd love to have a brewery in my house but I just don't have the space. It's got me thinking that BIAB actually has several advantages over a three vessel system, yet I'm struggling to think of advantages which 3 vessels have over BIAB.
Here are my reasons which I would like to hear contradicted!
!. Cost of setup. BIAB is easily available from scratch for <£100
2.Space. 2 hooks in the garage hold FVs and stocpot which contains all other brewing equipment. I only need my kitchen stove and a square meter of space under my sky hook.
3. With a stockpot without tap for both mashing and boiling, there is no dead space at all. It's therefore easy enough to achieve 80+% efficiency. More beer for the same money.
4. Less to clean up and therefore less hygiene issues.
5. It's a little quicker from start to finish partly due to a lack of sparging time.
6. Have I forgotten anything? :hmm:

 

[pittsy]

A disadvantage that comes to mind is you can't mash with the ideal water to grain ratio which could effect the final beer . The less water you have then the grains are too close together and a stuck mash may happen (dough balls etc too) and too much water (biab) means the grains are too far apart which will lower efficiency ( but probably not too much) and according to books i've read may effect the final taste too . There must be more but i can't think of any just now .

 

[Algernon]

From what I have read, the main difference seems to be that it is difficult to scale up to doing much larger brews. It also lacks triple shininess, as it only utilises a single shiny pot. This is sufficient reason for some to move on.
I guess it also doesn't resemble commercial breweries so closely, so for those wishing to progress the hobby into a small (or even large) business venture it doesn't provide such a good training ground?
I have done a fair amount of research since starting brewing, and in terms of the beer produced, there doesn't seem to be much discernable difference.

 

[Aleman]

In terms of running beer then I don't think it matters too much.

For beers that need storage time to mature then I think there will be significant 'issues'

and I would hate to see the size of pot required to do 25L of an 1.100 Russian Imperial Stout

 

[calumscott]

..........to other methods. Or is it?????????
I'd love to have a brewery in my house but I just don't have the space. It's got me thinking that BIAB actually has several advantages over a three vessel system, yet I'm struggling to think of advantages which 3 vessels have over BIAB.
Here are my reasons which I would like to hear contradicted!
!. Cost of setup. BIAB is easily available from scratch for <£100

For shiny, yes. You could build a plastic three vessel system for the same as a shiny BIAB. And a plastic BIAB for a bag of monkeynuts and half a mars bar...

2.Space. 2 hooks in the garage hold FVs and stocpot which contains all other brewing equipment. I only need my kitchen stove and a square meter of space under my sky hook.

Yes, space consumption is less with BIAB.

3. With a stockpot without tap for both mashing and boiling, there is no dead space at all. It's therefore easy enough to achieve 80+% efficiency. More beer for the same money.

Not quite. Efficiency is less with BIAB. I'm running at around 65-70% for most brews. Dead space isn't the killer - it's the mash efficiency.

4. Less to clean up and therefore less hygiene issues.

Not a massive issue - you're going to boil your wort anyway...

5. It's a little quicker from start to finish partly due to a lack of sparging time.

Yup, that's true.

6. Have I forgotten anything? :hmm:

As the others have said, big beer is much more difficult (although still possible) with BIAB, efficiency goes through the floor. 3V is much better at producing big volumes on small kit. I can only do 42l at a time with a brimming over 70l pot during the mash.

And pulling out a bag with 9.5kg dry-now-soaked malt isn't funny. It's like wrestling a massive, 25kg, close-to-boiling jellyfish...

Cleaning the hob after that and the boil is a bitch.

Makes awesome beer though and that, for me, is what matters...

 

[lambert]

For beers that need storage time to mature then I think there will be significant 'issues'

Hi Aleman,
Why do you say this? I've got an Old English ale and a Wee Heavy that's now 8 months into a planned 12-24 month maturation period. Is there anything I should watch out for when trying the beers?

and I would hate to see the size of pot required to do 25L of an 1.100 Russian Imperial Stout

A 70L pot will do
- 12kg grains
- 50L of initial water
- 60L mash volume
- 3.87 litre/Kg Liquor to Grain Ratio - which is getting very thick and difficult to work with. And you wil only have around 6cm headspace in the kettle which might inhibit the stirring that's required for a decent efficiency for these high gravities...

Cheers,
B

 

[RobWalker]

i'm happy with BIAB but probably wouldn't call it superior. it is cheaper and less space consuming, which is great for me, but it is somewhat restricted for a number of reasons (already listed.) If you're into 4% ales and less volumes than 23L, then a 30L boiler is great. anything else, I would struggle, and wouldn't want to be working with gigantic pots to get better volumes.

I suppose it depends where you draw the line and how proud you are, but if I want a beer much stronger than is easily achievable, I literally have no qualms with throwing a kilo of DME in. :lol:

 

[calumscott]

Actually, with my only big beer so far I got a measured BHE of 50% (before I lashed in sugar and DME to bring the gravity to where it should have been).

You'd need 14.5kg of grain and at my boil off rate that's 44 litres to start with.

I think it *might* fly...

...but then again I would probably either borrow a mashtun or finish my build and do it 3V...

I wouldn't fancy pulling that bag!

 

[graysalchemy]

...but then again I would probably either borrow a mashtun or finish my build and do it 3V...

Yes what are you waiting for C :lol: :lol:

 

[calumscott]

Slightly looser finance for a kick off!


I did tidy the shed the other day so that's a start...

...only took, erm... exactly a year. To the day! :rofl:

 

[Duxuk]

Thanks for the constructive replies. I agree that the higher the planned OG the lower the efficiency may be. Having said that my last 2 20l brews were OG 1054 and 82% efficiency and OG 1053 with 80%. I always do a mashout. I reheat the whole lot after 90 minutes and stir as vigorously and continuously as I can. I try to get to 75C, now. Last time a sausage sandwich intervened so I gave up at 73C!. Losing no wort to dead space obviously helps. The stirring changes the look of the grain. I am convinced you beat the sugars into solution from the grain husks.
I have a 32l stockpot. 20l brews are a realistic limit to avoid spillage. I am not unfit but it's not easy to lift around 30kg from the stove and carrying it into the garage. A sky hook is a must!
A gas burner may well be on the cards. It would speed up the heating to a boil which took about an hour last time, and also save my back with less carrying to do. :thumb:

 

[hairybiker]

3 pot maybe the ideal, but I made do with 2 for many many years, and only recently have built an hlt.
A simple mash tun made from a cooler will cost less than £30, and a converted plastic boiler will be about the same, single element is fine for 5 gal brews.

 

[Aleman]

'Significant Issues'

Hmm perhaps I need to be clear here, I think BIAB is a great way to get into AG brewing . . . I'm dubious about doing it on a stove top as I don't think a stove puts out enough wattage to really get 25L plus of liquid to a boil or maintain a vigorous rolling boil . . . lack of a (good) boil will mean that you retain excessive proteins/protein fragments that will cause stability issues with clarity and flavour issues as time goes by. . . . plus I know how much mess I can make with a 6L pot in the kitchen . . the consequences of a 25L boil is not worth thinking about.

I also remain unconvinced about the argument that you don't need clear wort out of the mash tun . . while I accept that it is not a requirement for wort to be bright, and free from solid lumps of grain is adequate, the amount of starch flour really should be reduced going into the boiler. The issue here is that as boiling proceeds these starch granules swell and burst open, which is what you do in a decoction mash, unfortunately you no longer have any active enzymes present to use up this freed starch . . . which will hang around in the beer leading to stability issues over time.

Excessively thin mashes will alter the fermentability of the wort, as it changes the activity ratio of alpha to beta amylase. This is not all that much of an issue as you can alter the temperature profile of the mash to take that into account, if you are aware of it in the first place. Ideally if you want repeatability then you need to keep many things constant and mash thickness is one of those.

Thin mashes without appropriate water treatment will also have potentially undesirable, and unrepeatable, effects on mash and boil pH affecting the beer stability.

I know many fine beers are brewed using the BIAB approach, and have recommended it in the past, but if you are after the final 5-10 points in a competition (against good 3V brewers) then you could well find yourself having a hard time getting then. If you are not into competitions and you brew beer to drink relatively quickly then you are not likely to see these 'Stability' issues as they only show up after 6 months or so (depending on the amount of care you take with brewing)

 

[anthonyUK]

Whilst I don't think it is superior it does have a lot going for it.
The "potential" issues Aleman mentioned remind me of the classic thread on AHB where BIAB was first discussed. There were a lot of potential issues mentioned there and they may have some validity but if you are willing to ignore these and the high OG thing doesn't concern you it is a great method.
The results speak for themselves with BIAB coming in ahead of traditional made beers in competitions not because it is a better method but because the brewers are more skilled.

 

[Vossy1]

Top advice A :thumb:

 

[calumscott]

I don't think a stove puts out enough wattage to really get 25L plus of liquid to a boil or maintain a vigorous rolling boil

*some* stoves will happily get a good rolling boil in as much as 48 litres - mine does, with just three rings going. The manual rates it at 7.5kW and to be fair the big frying pan/wok ring is a beast...

...I wouldn't attempt it on anything electric, I just don't think you'd get enough welly.

he consequences of a 25L boil is not worth thinking about.

The consequences are straightforward. Half a pot of Astonish and about an hour's worth of elbow grease usually... :lol:

Actually - I'll post a picture after tomorrow's brewday...

freed starch . . . which will hang around in the beer leading to stability issues over time

I'm working my way through the archive bottles of stuff I brewed 9 months or so ago and so far they're OK. The remaining bottles will be getting opened around 15 and 18 months so we'll see... To be honest my beer isn't lasting long enough at the moment for this ever to be a problem!

Excessively thin mashes will alter the fermentability of the wort, as it changes the activity ratio of alpha to beta amylase. This is not all that much of an issue as you can alter the temperature profile of the mash to take that into account, if you are aware of it in the first place. Ideally if you want repeatability then you need to keep many things constant and mash thickness is one of those.

This I really need to read up on. Firstly because it's news to me, secondly because I don't know if BeerSmith just handles that in its preconfigured BIAB profiles and thirdly and most importantly I like my software to make things easy, not take away the need for knowledge...

If you are not into competitions and you brew beer to drink relatively quickly

I think that's the *thing* with BIAB for me - it is easy and quickish, and it makes great "drinking beer". I think that I'll probably have a go at some more "special" beer (belgian trippels and other more complicated things) with BIAB soon but I think these in particular will be the beers that will make me get the 3V system finished. High gravity is hard to achieve with BIAB and beers that are going get squirrelled away, well you don't want to put all the effort in only for it to go down the sink. Also it's likely to save that scramble through the brew box and kitchen cupboards for interesting fermentibles when your pre-boil gravity comes up 10 points short!

So while I intend to 3V sometime soonish, I can see me always BIABing regular bitters, pales, hefe's and stouts (your Effin Oatmeal BIABs very well indeed!) and 3V brewing for anything big or slow or if I ever think I get to the point where my beer could win stuff.

Thanks again for awesome insight as usual! :)

 

[JKaranka]

I get 25l on the boil on the stovetop using two gas rings on my nice big pot.

 

[Tomcat]

thanks to all for a very informative and valuable discussion, especially to Duxuk for starting it off - I currently BIAB in the main - although I do have a mash tun built from a cooler box on plans, advice and descriptions here - and it works well, many thanks to all for that :thumb:

I have just recently got a 'boiler' vessel (plastic) to prep the hot water for the mash in the BIAB and I am planning the fitting of the electric heater and tap as well as the brewing frame to accomodate this lot in a tiered way to avoid lifting etc - and a sky hook to save the back when lifting 8kg of grain in a bag out of the shiney as and when required - so I guess I seem to have a hybrid of both

I think I will be using BIAB for great 'easy' beers, easy as in single vessel and simple prep and clean up for house and session beers - but 3 pot (mixed shiney and plastic for financial reasons at the moment) for more complex heavy brews.

 

[Asalpaws]

Great thread, I've done both but have come back to 3 vessel in the end, just gives you more control and efficiency. I fully encourage BIAB as it's easier to get into but for my money it's got to be 3 vessel for the best of home brew. I even felt a bit critical of the Braü Meister as it seems like BIAB and all the beers they show look pretty hazy....

 

[Templar]

I'm going to admit to a serious lack of knowledge here, because I have no idea what BIAB is. I've guessed it stands for Boil In A Bag but despite what is probably a very descriptive name, I'm none the wiser on how it actually works. Given the subject of the thread - and my increasing interest in doing some kind of all grain brew instead of the constant kits that I've been doing - would someone mind giving a brief explanation?