citric acid

[phoenix68]

Hi can i please have some advice on the use of citric acid.When to when not to and how much to use.
I made some cider using supermarket juice which i was led to believe lacked acidity.I used 5 litres of apple juice added nearly 2kg of glucose sugar two tea spoons of citric acid one tea spoon of tannin.Then made up to 10 litters with water giving a SG of just over 1080.
The resulting cider is disgusting the only things I've done differently from before is add the citric acid and the tanning.It seems to be very acidic gut wrenching.
I would be grate full for any advice on where I've gone wrong you can give.
I racked this cider off about 6months ago is there any way of retrieving it or is it best used as drain cleaner.

Thanks for any advice you can give Graham

 

AJ doesn't need any extra citric acid to help the yeast invert the sugars as it has enough of it's own.
The amount of tannin you've added is neither here nor there as you've only used 1 tsp in 10 gals.
Your cider will have fermented out to total dryness and will need sweetening to taste with something like "Splenda"
8 weeks is the minimum period I mature my ciders for, so your's is well mature.
I also add 1 campden tablet per gallon before maturing and conditioning, this prevents oxidation and still allows the yeast to work on the priming sugar.

 

[phoenix68]

Thanks for your advice i will try sweetening it with splenda and i think you are correct in every thing you say but i fear the citric acid has made its so acidic there will be no way back for it.
I would still be interest in any advice any one can give me on when to use citric acid and when not to.
I know one thing I will never add it to supermarket apple juice again unless i want clean my drains.Ive now bought some PH test strips in the 2.8 -4.6 range I have tested the cider and its sitting on the lowest reading 2.8 so may be lower.
I have just tested some supermarket apple juice and this seems to be 3.1 so again very low if I'm doing this correctly.
I think cider and wine should have a PH of between 4-4.6 if this is so what is the best way to raise PH to this or doesn't it really matter.

Thanks Graham.

 

i fear the citric acid has made its so acidic there will be no way back for it.

Precipitated chalk will strip some of the acid out of it!

 

[phoenix68]

I have Just orderd some.

Thanks for you help Graham.

 

[Aleman]

I made some cider using supermarket juice which i was led to believe lacked acidity.I used 5 litres of apple juice added nearly 2kg of glucose sugar two tea spoons of citric acid one tea spoon of tannin.Then made up to 10 litters with water giving a SG of just over 1080.
The resulting cider is disgusting the only things I've done differently from before is add the citric acid and the tanning.It seems to be very acidic gut wrenching.

I racked this cider off about 6months ago is there any way of retrieving it or is it best used as drain cleaner.

AJ doesn't need any extra citric acid to help the yeast invert the sugars as it has enough of it's own.

Actually the purpose of adding acid to the juice has nothing to do with 'inverting' the sugar . . . which for fruits is generally fructose which does not require 'inverting'. The problem is that a lot of juices from concentrate are made from dessert apples rather than cider apples so tend to be lower in tannin and acidity than a true cider juice. . . . To compensate for this we can add extra tannin (strong tea/grape tannin), and acid. Tannin is not too much of a problem, (white wine needs 10ml per 4.5L . . . I aim for slightly less than this in Ciders), but adding any acid without knowing how much you already have in there is always hit and miss. I titrated the Acidity of my juice this weekend (fully intending to add acid), only to discover that the juice I used did not need any . . . Most local Homebrew Shops can sell You Ritchies Beer and Wine Acidity Test kit which will allow you to measure you juice and add acid appropriately.

Couple of things I would question . . . Why did you add sugar? and two why did you dilute it with water? The best cider is made with pure apple juice (With appropriate additions as described above to compensate for not having the correct apple blends), unless you are looking for silly loopy juice, just use apple juice, adding a small amount of sugar if you want it a bit stronger. . .. mine made this weekend was 11.1 brix which equates to 1.044 ish . . . and will ferment down to around 0.990 . . . so a nice crisp dry cider at 5% . . . but has plenty of apple taste . . . which you will have lost through diluting it with water.

And one other thing . . . Cider should not use Citric acid . . . malic acid is the correct acid to use if you need to increase the acidity of the apple juice (Measure first to determine if you need to add any)

Retrieve it :hmm: As has been mentioned you could neutralise the acidity with precipitated chalk, you could make a turbo cider (say 20 Litres) and then blend it with the old cider as its fermenting . . . which would probably give you a better overall result . .. but I wouldn't go anything lower than a 2:1 Good:bad ratio.

you've only used 1 tsp in 10 gals.

It's more like 1 tsp in 10Litres

 

[Aleman]

I know one thing I will never add it to supermarket apple juice again unless i want clean my drains.Ive now bought some PH test strips in the 2.8 -4.6 range I have tested the cider and its sitting on the lowest reading 2.8 so may be lower. I have just tested some supermarket apple juice and this seems to be 3.1 so again very low if I'm doing this correctly. I think cider and wine should have a PH of between 4-4.6 if this is so what is the best way to raise PH to this or doesn't it really matter.

pH is useless to determine if you need to add acid or not. What winemakers (and cidermakers) do is to compare the amount of acid present in the juice to a known standard (Usually sulphuric). Use a Ritchies Wine and Beer Acidity Test Kit (about 6 quid from a LHBS) to determine how much acid is present in the juice, and then there is a table in First Steps in Winemaking (IIRC) that tells you how much acid you need to add per gallon to raise the acidity by x ppt (part per thousand). (I'll post it here when I get home)

The reason you don't use pH is easily demonstrated. Take a sample of juice and measure the pH Say it come out at pH3.3, Titrate the actual acidity - 3.5ppt . .. now dilute the juice with the same volume of distilled water .. . . the titrateable acidity will have dropped to 1.75ppt . . . the pH will still be around 3.4 to 3.5

 

[phoenix68]

Thanks Aleman for your reply, I the same as you judging from reading your past posts are fascinated by the science of brewing. Admittedly I'm completely new to the subject but I'm a qualified engineer ern't the right way through old fashioned apprenticeship not one of these modern ones or through university with no practical experience. So i am used to facts and figures and precise measurement.
Your replies are xactly the kind of information I've been looking for.I look forward to your post this evening on acidity.
Now to answer your questions on why add sugar and water.
I added sugar to this brew for two reasons firstly these days (the past 10 or 12 years) I mainly drink wine red or white but very dry so there fore that was what i was hoping with no real knowledge to recreate as this is what my pallet is used too and to be honest the results in the past haven't been that bad, not compared to supermarket wines priced £5 or below any way.
The second reason is I have made cider from real juice pressed from a press me and my dear old dad made from this I made real cider and apple wine, I cant imagine there is anything that would possibly compare with the subtleties of flavour or thirst quenching quality's of this cider that would come from a carton of Morison's made from concentrate apple juice so there fore i bastardised it sorry that should read chaptalised it into a very dry harsh drink where subtle tones aren't as important.
Water there are two reasons for adding water one they all ready have after all its from concentrate secondly I'm as tight as a ducks be hind.

Thanks for your help its greatly appreciated.

PS wan,t to look AG at some point.

 

The reason you don't use pH is easily demonstrated. Take a sample of juice and measure the pH Say it come out at pH3.3, Titrate the actual acidity - 3.5ppt . .. now dilute the juice with the same volume of distilled water .. . . the titrateable acidity will have dropped to 1.75ppt . . . the pH will still be around 3.4 to 3.5

ppt - parts per ??
I try to aim for 0.4 to 0.5% sulphuric in my ciders and wines.

 

Penny has just dropped, it's parts per thousand.

 

[Aleman]

Penny has just dropped, it's parts per thousand.

0.4% ~= 4.0ppt :lol:

 

0.4% ~= 4.0ppt :lol:

Cheers AM :thumb: