Just stop oil

[Chippy_Tea]

If you can't change everything, everywhere, all in one go, then you shouldn't bother,

Has anyone said that?

They need to get people on their side all they are doing by chucking jigsaw pieces and orange powder about is turning those that may agree with them against them, listen to the boos in the video in the concert they are doing themselves and their cause no favours, you may not agree with me but i will say it again -

I would like them to protest and disrupt the lives of those that make the rules where they make them not some ordinary people who have treat themselves to an evening out, there are lots of railings around parliament why dont they go there and chain themselves to them, i am sure they would get plenty of coverage by the press.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Has anyone said that?

They need to get people on their side all they are doing by chucking jigsaw pieces and orange powder about is turning those that may agree with them against them, listen to the boos in the video in the concert they are doing themselves and their cause no favours, you may not agree with me but i will say it again -

It's the overriding sentiment every time this happens. If people really believed in what JSO are doing, they'd be looking for ever more extreme action, rather than whinging about how ordinary folks simply must not ever be inconvenienced

 

[Chippy_Tea]

If people really believed in what JSO are doing, they'd be looking for ever more extreme action,

Most people believe the world is in a mess and something needs doing and soon but its obvious from the poll result here the same people dont believe in "what JSO are doing" or to be more accurate the methods they are using to get their message across, they are more likely to turn people away from their cause than to get them on board to take more extreme action.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Most people believe the world is in a mess and something needs doing and soon but its obvious from the poll result here the same people dont believe in "what JSO are doing" or to be more accurate the methods they are using to get their message across, they are more likely to turn people away from their cause than to get them on board to take more extreme action.

That could be seen as most people being totally disingenuous when they claim they believe in JSOs cause but just don't believe in the methodology.

It strikes me that in fact, most people do not care. The evidence for this would be their steadfast refusal to acknowledge the need for any sort of inconvenience or indeed sacrifice that will be required to make the necessary difference to the trajectory we are on.
I'm not much better. But then I don't criticise JSO or their methods. I think they are really quite good.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It strikes me that in fact, most people do not care.

As i have said everyone knows the planet is in a mess and i think the majority do care about how its going to effect their children but how do we stop America, China and India the big polluters when JSO cannot even stop out own governments future plans?

 

[Brewnaldo]

As i have said everyone knows the planet is in a mess and i think the majority do care about how its going to effect their children but how do we stop America, China and India the big polluters when JSO cannot even stop out own governments future plans?

They're never going to have any success in changing our own govts tack (the only thing that they can hope to do, anyone who says WELL WHY DON'T THEY GO PROTEST IN CHINA!!!! ought to be shunned from the debate immediately) if all these people who apparently recognise and accept the severity of the situation keep playing the faux "adult in the room" persona and hand waving them away with "I just don't agree with their methods" takes.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

A weather person on 5 live said earlier people who say its just a weather pattern dont realise who long natural changes in the climate take this has happened over a very short time and its only going to get worse -

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Why do you keep banging on about those that dont care i am discussing those that do, can you answer the question -

As i have said everyone knows the planet is in a mess and i think the majority do care about how its going to effect their children but how do we stop America, China and India the big polluters when JSO cannot even stop out own governments future plans?

 

[hoppyscotty]

The general public are just trying to crack on with their lives and pay the bills and nobody has any right to inconvenience them going about their daily business unimpeded...a basic human right that some appear to so lightly dismiss. There is no evidence whatsoever to back up any claims that the general public do not care about climate change and need JSO to poke their conscience's. JSO don't have the monopoly on representing everyone who has concerns around climate change and they certainly don't want to be part of the solution and certainly have nothing to offer in terms of suggestions of solutions. They don't get to own the narrative or to bully people to their way of thinking. that's not how democracy works. That's just coercion and tyranny. I don't think JSO give two hoots about the environment and the majority of the public aren't fooled by them either. It's a cause they've hijacked to suit their own political aims which are completely separate from the issue of climate change.

The evidence of people caring about the issue of climate change is stark and all around. Around me and across the country solar panels are going up on roof's every day at great expense to the home owners who are unlikely to see a return on their investment....EV's are appearing on every driveway....modern houses already are built to a high standard on insulation, and if they're not people are investing in improving it...people everywhere are doing what they can as and when they can afford to do it (none of this stuff is cheap), and all this in the backdrop of rising inflation and interest rates.

But the worse thing about all of this is the lack of debate and understanding about how to tackle climate change and JSO in part are preventing such a necessary discussion. The fields around me are being diverted from food production to harbouring thousands of acres of solar panels, which begs the question where more and more of our food is coming from.....of course it's being imported from faraway and exotic locations...oh dear...we've not quite thought that one through have we???! But that's ok as long as we're not causing CO2 emissions in our own backyards we can give ourselves a pat on the back and wave our fingers and tut tut at other nations who are emitting all the CO2 on our behalf. This stuffs complicated and nobody has really thought it through, least of all our so called political elite. In our desperate efforts to do the right thing decarbonise our insatiable demand for the products and gadgets we need to decarbonise is driving a massive increase in Co2 emissions dwarfing any savings we're making and we're building up a CO2 mortgage we can't hope to repay anytime before 2050. Utter lunacy in action and totally counterproductive and we will fail unless we get smart very very quickly, and we need JSO like a hole in the head, but that's a whole other topic.

 

[dad_of_jon]

You may think its pointless and you are entitled yo your opinion, i am sure members will be surprised to learn their petrol cars are as bad for the planet than the diesel they switched from as i did last time i changed cars.

Around 15 years ago when i bought my first diesel car we were lead to believe diesel engine cars were better for the planet as they did far more to the gallon and produced less CO2, at that time diesel was cheaper than petrol and road tax was £30 a big incentive to move from petrol to diesel, we are now in a situation where petrol cars are producing the same amount of particles as those dirty diesels but few petrol car buyers are aware as no one is kicking up a stink about it as they did about the diesel engine cars.



Cast your minds back to about a decade ago and you may remember the world’s attitude to diesel was very different to now.

In fact, it was near enough the complete opposite.

Diesel cars were regarded as the cleaner alternative to petrol, with a smaller average output of CO2 – which, you may already know, contributes to global warming – at the tailpipe.

This was reflected in lower road tax and rising popularity among car buyers.

Manufacturers responded by investing heavily in diesel technology, so in only a handful of years, diesel engines evolved into advanced, refined powerplants – a far cry from the clattery, smoke-belching diesel motors of the 20th Century.

How quickly things can change. Fast-forward to 2016, and diesel was no longer seen as a solution.

Despite consistently producing less CO2 than petrol engines, a global emissions scandal broke out when it was revealed many diesel models produced far more nitrogen oxides (NOx) than they were claimed to do.

While not classified as a greenhouse gas like CO2, NOx is harmful to human health, especially when concentrated in urban areas.

It quickly became clear that a new problem had been created by the rise of diesel.

https://www.cinch.co.uk/guides/ask-the-experts/are-petrol-cars-really-cleaner-than-diesel

A step in the right direction is less miles in any 4 seater sofa on wheels. If I was living in london god forbid I'd probably not even have a car. If you provide good public transport then private transport reduces. Of course anything to do with national infrastructure either better public transport or more ev charging isn't going to happen any time soon.

As you can see from my avatar I was able to get good mpg from my euro 6 diesel cx-5 and prior to that I had an euro 5 kia carens. both were ahead of the the required standards at the time. fast forward 7 years to the end of my cx-5 ownership and I was getting 45mpg so switched to a small turbo petrol vehicle. again one of the earliest emissions adopters. So it has a GPF .

I now do about 5000 a year which is less than half and in one job I was doing as much as 15k a year.

Truth is we are all hypocritical to a degree and JSO protesters are near the top of hypocrisy tree i'd wager.
If they can prove they have gone oil and by-products of oil free it would carry more truck with me.

A question for myself - does cycling a few miles to buy locally sourced farm produce make up for me buying hops from the other side of the world.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Why do you keep banging on about those that dont care i am discussing those that do, can you answer the question -

Well becasue those who don't care seem to be trying to tell us that really they do care very much, then railing against anything that potentiall threatens the status quo. For the most part, people are too scared to admit that in fact, they dont want to face any inconvenience or cost or sacrifice.
Like I said, the fact of the matter is that if you do in fact accept the severity of the situation, it stands to reason that you would advocate for more extreme measures, rather than getting all shrill about the snooker getting delayed half an hour....

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Truth is we are all hypocritical to a degree and protesters are near the top of hypocrisy tree i'd wager.
If they can prove they have gone oil and by-products of oil free it would carry more truck with me.

I do wonder how many of them go abroad every year on holiday, own a log burner and drive to the supermarket on the outskirts of their towns to get heir monthly shop.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Well becasue those who don't care seem to be trying to tell us that really they do care very much, then railing against anything that potentiall threatens the status quo. For the most part, people are too scared to admit that in fact, they dont want to face any inconvenience or cost or sacrifice.
Like I said, the fact of the matter is that if you do in fact accept the severity of the situation, it stands to reason that you would advocate for more extreme measures, rather than getting all shrill about the snooker getting delayed half an hour....

Again you have not answered the question, we get that you think people dont care enough to do anything about this as you repeat it in every post like a cracked record, so again i ask you -

how do we stop America, China and India the big polluters when JSO cannot even change our own governments future plans?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Well becasue those who don't care seem to be trying to tell us that really they do care very much, then railing against anything that potentiall threatens the status quo. For the most part, people are too scared to admit that in fact, they dont want to face any inconvenience or cost or sacrifice.
Like I said, the fact of the matter is that if you do in fact accept the severity of the situation, it stands to reason that you would advocate for more extreme measures, rather than getting all shrill about the snooker getting delayed half an hour....

Well the devil is in the detail...just who is it who has to make the sacrifices? You can bet the sacrifice is not going to be shared equally amongst everyone. Anything that means the deterioration in peoples quality of life is doomed to fail and anything that halts or slows down the continuing development of developing nations is doomed to fail. You can bet your bottom dollar those that will bay the highest price by a country mile are those in developing nations who need cheap energy desperately.

And the status quo has served us quite well in the last 100 years...despite its inadequacies and imperfections, of which there are many, the results are that the lives of billions of people have improved and almost everyone is richer than they were 100 years ago, life expectancies has increased massively, opportunity is there for more people than ever. Alot of the issues we face in the world today taking climate change out of it are self generated problems because we've been so successful. We chuck the baby out with the bathwater at our peril.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Again you have not answered the question, i will shorten the quote to see if that helps -

Well "we" don't. "We" are not responsible for them. But it's for 100% certain that committing a harmful act on the basis that "bigger boys do it to" doesn't stand up to any morality check whatsover. You have once again returned to "Can't Win, Don't Try" logic.

Our own govt is the only one we are able to influence. They in turn can seek to influence the direction of travel on a more global scale on our behalf.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Well the devil is in the detail...just who is it who has to make the sacrifices? You can bet the sacrifice is not going to be shared equally amongst everyone. Anything that means the deterioration in peoples quality of life is doomed to fail and anything that halts or slows down the continuing development of developing nations is doomed to fail. You can bet your bottom dollar those that will bay the highest price by a country mile are those in developing nations who need cheap energy desperately.

And the status quo has served us quite well in the last 100 years...despite its inadequacies and imperfections, of which there are many, the results are that the lives of billions of people have improved and almost everyone is richer than they were 100 years ago, life expectancies has increased massively, opportunity is there for more people than ever. Alot of the issues we face in the world today taking climate change out of it are self generated problems because we've been so successful. We church the baby out with the bathwater at our peril.

Well yeah.... Some will sacrifice more than others. But if you are telling me that you recognise the severity of the problem, then you are telling me that protestors who interrupt a cricket match ought to be jailed, then i'm sorry, but you quite simply do not recognise the severity of the problem, which is by most if not all scientific accounts, an existential problem

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Well "we" don't. "We" are not responsible for them

So we clean up our act and it makes no difference to the planet whatsoever as we only add 1% of the pollution while India, China and America will carry on regardless, great, now you know why there is so much apathy here!

 

[dad_of_jon]

I do wonder how many of them go abroad every year on holiday, own a log burner and drive to the supermarket on the outskirts of their towns to get heir monthly shop.

Yup, I try to make the least impactful choice on a daily basis but in a globalised world it's impossible to be perfect. If you want people to listen they really need to lead by example.

If we could use sustainable palm oil instead of fossil based oil that would also improve our health if it was not longer in so many food products. Taking fossil fuel it out of the ground is a one time event. i.e. once that oil has gone it cant be extracted again. Growing oil should soak up co2 and be part of a closed loop.

We can't stop oil. perhaps they should be called DUDO (don't use dinosaur oil)

 

[hoppyscotty]

Well yeah.... Some will sacrifice more than others. But if you are telling me that you recognise the severity of the problem, then you are telling me that protestors who interrupt a cricket match ought to be jailed, then i'm sorry, but you quite simply do not recognise the severity of the problem, which is by most if not all scientific accounts, an existential problem

Very easy for you to say..,..are you volunteering to make the sacrifices? just how far are you willing to go?

Like I said/implied this is a very complicated problem that requires complicated and nuanced solution thought up by people far cleverer than us. Emotionally driven knee jerk reactions will deliver the same results that emotionally driven knee jerk reactions have always delivered....failure and disaster.

This is a global integrated problem that will be solved by scientists, engineers, economists and politicians. Not by the likes of JSO throwing a tantrum and making life worse for everyone else - they're just getting in the way of people who are already engaged in solving the problem...or at least trying.

The most powerful weapon we have to fight climate change is money. It's money that we will need to solve this issue and a sh1t ton load of it. More than you can possibly imagine. More money than we have. And disabling or hampering our economies by disrupting the continuity of our economies and economic growth will prevent our ability to make the required changes and invent and implement the required technology.

Seriously are you even aware of the scale of the challenge we face???? 'Sustainable' and 'net zero' are easy words to say, but it's not easy to implement.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Yup, I try to make the least impactful choice on a daily basis but in a globalised world it's impossible to be perfect. If you want people to listen they really need to lead by example.

If we could use sustainable palm oil instead of fossil based oil that would also improve our health if it was not longer in so many food products. Taking fossil fuel it out of the ground is a one time event. i.e. once that oil has gone it cant be extracted again. Growing oil should soak up co2 and be part of a closed loop.

We can't stop oil. perhaps they should be called DUDO (don't use dinosaur oil)

Actually alternatives to oil based fuels is easy...we already have the technology to run our existing ICE cars on completely sustainable and net zero synthetic fuels....they just need a humungous amount of electricity to manufacture. The root of all of this is energy generation. Currently only around 10% - 15% of global energy is from sustainable sources...and we need to increase our global electrical generation capacity by at least 300% to even stand a cat in hells chance...as well as cleaning up what we have today.