Keg Newbie. UK CO2 best bet?

[PaulCa]

Hi,

I brewed for a about a year and got sick of cleaning 22 1 litre bottles every time. So I stopped.

I want to get back into brewing, but I want to use a keg and possibly an old fridge to cool it.

I can afford a new or recon'd Corny keg, but I'm a little cautious about CO2 and what fittings to go for etc. I use CO2 currently for a fish tank, supplied by a regulator bolted onto a 1000psi 2kg fire extinguisher and while I could probably hook up a Y valve and some adapters and run a keg off that I'm not so sure the 50-100psi regulated pressure from the bottle would be suitable and... I don't want my keg in the living room.

So... What are the CO2 options?

A few particulars that might make things a little more interesting. I live in Northern Ireland, so I doubt mainland suppliers will be able to post a filled CO2 cylinder to me, they are prohibited items for Royal mail and couriers that might take then probably won't send to Northern Ireland as it involves a night flight over.

Ideally I think I'm looking at a bar CO2 cylinder, preferably a small one not the 5 foot high ones! Needs to fillable locally, I can probably source that once I find what type of cylinder I will be dealing with and where I'm going to get an empty one.

Does anyone have any tips?

EDIT: Oh... there are other options....

* if I was to buy a basic beginner plastic keg instead and the 8gram CO2 bulbs... How expensive does that get? Does a bulb last for a whole brew or does it quickly add up to being expensive?
* I can "produce" CO2 at home from Sodium Bicarbonate/Citric acid, with a pressure of about 3 Bar (40psi) and 104 grams per batch. How practical is this for a keg, is 3 bar enough and would 104 grams of CO2 last a whole brew or two?

Thanks,

Paul

 

[jonnymorris]

* if I was to buy a basic beginner plastic keg instead and the 8gram CO2 bulbs... How expensive does that get? Does a bulb last for a whole brew or does it quickly add up to being expensive?

I don't know answers to most of your post but I do know that the little bulbs are not particulalrly cost effective, i.e. you'll probably need about 4 to get 23L of beer out of a keg.

I'd reconsider bottles. Keep them clean after use and all they'll need is a dunk in a no rinse sanitiser before filling. I can fill 40+ bottles in about 90mins.

 

[bobsbeer]

Why not just duplicate your fish tank setup where you keep your keg? Probably cheaper in the long run. It's been a while since I used a plastic PB, but the number of little bulbs used will depend on how much you drink in one go. But you will probably go through a few by the time the keg is drunk. But they are easy to get.

 

[Wetroads]

Have you looked at the mini keg system? CO2 is a doddle then and they will fit striaght in your fridge.

 

[PaulCa]

Why not just duplicate your fish tank setup where you keep your keg? Probably cheaper in the long run.

I have been thinking about this as an option. I'm sure I can get from 4mm push to fit up to a corny barbed tail disconnect.

The 2Kg reconditioned FE was £25, full. £15 to refil locally. The regulator is a little more worrying, the aquarium regulator was £40 and it's not exactly stable, it can be very hard to adjust the pressure and keep it stable. For example, when the CO2 shuts off for the night, the pressure can double from 25psi to 50psi or even up to 75/100psi against the solenoid. Then when the CO2 comes back on in the morning the pressure falls back to 20psi ish. At the moment it's actually stable but at 100psi. The needle valve holding back most of the pressure. Going through 4mm plastic lines and push-to-fit, 100psi is a little daunting, but I know if I pull a line off the pressure drops to virtually nothing, so no python lines.

I think there is an issue with FE tanks that I have to be aware of. They are siphon tanks, the CO2 is picked up from the liquid form not the top gaseous part, very much like a keg. The aim is to get as much CO2 out of the tank as possible as fast as possible, emptying the whole 2kg in under 30 seconds in the familiar white cloud of dry ice. So if the flow of CO2 gets high, say when purging a keg, there is a high chance of liquid CO2 discharge through the reg, which I believe causes the destabilization I have experienced as it may deposit dry ice on the needle and seat. So the reg would need to be kept at a very low setting and purging might tank a few minutes. I can live with that though.

Keeping it at 10psi might be a bit more tricky.

Anyway, I have an order in with the hop shop for a corny 23 litre with an S30 in disconnect and flexi tap. I'll see how annoying the S30 becomes over a few brews and then maybe go the FE route with a better reg.

 

[operon]

When you got your fire extinguisher did you not get the dip tube removed and the valve changed

 

[wilsoa1111]

i was looking into kegs but the gas supply thing (and cost) kinda put me off- how much and what do u need for a s30 corny setup?

im guessing s30 cylinder,

a corny with s30

a flexitap

then what else do u need and how do u gas it up?

 

[JonnyD]

Can you not get an empty 3ft co2 bottle sent over and just fill it yourself from a local supplier.

 

[PaulCa]

When you got your fire extinguisher did you not get the dip tube removed and the valve changed

No. For the aquarium the flow rate is so low I don't think liquid is a real problem. The reg is grand if I just leave it alone.

I have a few leads on CO2 supplies locally now. There is another fire safety place the other end of town which apparently sell normal CO2 bottles for £70 and fill them.

Going to try the S30 for the first brew or two, see how long it lasts. It will be annoying as I will probably need to move the keg out of the fridge to gas it.

 

[PaulCa]

i was looking into kegs but the gas supply thing (and cost) kinda put me off- how much and what do u need for a s30 corny setup?

im guessing s30 cylinder,

a corny with s30

a flexitap

then what else do u need and how do u gas it up?

I'm hoping that is all I'll need, as that's pretty much what I have ordered. A 23 litre Corny + S30 in disconnect, flexitap out-disconnect, better brew kit, nottingham ale yeast, Youngs finnings and an S30 cylinder. I have the fermenter and bottling/clearing bucket already.

The corny was £125 I believe, the S30 cylinder about £18.

 

[operon]

If you get the fire extinguishers sorted let me know, from Northern Ireland as well so knowing co2 supplier will come in handy when I get round to going the corny route.

 

[PaulCa]

If you get the fire extinguishers sorted let me know, from Northern Ireland as well so knowing co2 supplier will come in handy when I get round to going the corny route.

Yea the FE. The problems are the siphon up take and the rapid push release valve. The former can be dealt with if you don't use a high rate of CO2 and the later by always using a regulator, just cable tie the release handle ON and trust the reg. In fact on the pub bottle I bought, warning no. 2 is "NEVER use the cylinder without a pressure reduction valve or regulator". So you'll need a reg anyway. I have read of people who don't use this, but instead just "bite" the gas knob and watch the pressure and knock it off once it reaches where they want. A little eh... fool hardy, maybe?

If you really need a way to quickly shut it off, you can fit a shut off valve or solenoid valve. Make 100% sure the cable tie holdind the release trigger ON is easy to remove quickly, should anything go wrong.

A un-tried idea that I heard was to mount the cylinder upside down, meaning the siphon pipe picks up from the gas, not the liquid.

Anyway, for those that find this thread looking for the same answers I was...

Nifex, Dunmurry, Belfast will supply ex-pub cylinders if they have them available. 5.5Kg was £80 filled with brand new regulator. A waist height, must be a 10Kg cylinder was £120 with reg. Nifex also informed me that finding a replacement valve for an FE with no dip pipe and a turn knob rather than a push release is harder than finding a pub cylinder.

 

[Runwell-Steve]

Upside down fire extinguishers work fine, I am using one at the moment.

I have used a few converted fire extinguishers which have had a proper valve fitted and the dip tube removed, The valves on them can be a bit temperamental though.

My supplier had run out of them so I now just have a fire extinguisher mounted upside down on the wall, I prefer the trigger valves they seem more reliable to me so I am having some Fire Extinguishers converted to remove the dip tube but leave the trigger valve in place.

 

[PaulCa]

Well I got the gas line. Two issues. One, the outlet on the reg is not a 6mm barb, it looks more like a 4mm with large barbs. Second I bought "calor gas" pipe which is 6mm and 8-9mm clamps. The problem is that while this sounds acceptable (to me), the orange gas pipe is about 2mm thick and so the clamps don't fit.

I was still able to get the keg up to 15psi without the clamps. I've ordered a 6mm barb tail for the reg and I'll order some large clips.

There is still however debate as to whether using the current reg gauge, messured in litres per minute and cubic feet per hour will really tell me PSI by conversion. I connected a bar gauge to the reg and opened the tap until the gauge red 10 cfh and the bar gauge read just under 1 bar. I opened it to 30 cfh and it read just over 2 bar, so it 'seems' to be reading pressure rather than flow.... I hope.