My post, Pink army

[An Ankoù]

I don't agree no one is born a racist it's something you learn in life if you mix with the wrong people.

It would be nice to think so, but maybe the opposite is true and we have a natural affinity for our own and those who are like us and we learn as we grow older that those who don't look or speak like us have, in fact, more in common with us than we first thought or, more importantly, don't pose a threat.
Certainly we can learn racism, nationalism, religious bigotry and speciesism by mixing with that type of people or of living in certain communities.

 

[Clarence]

It would be nice to think so, but maybe the opposite is true and we have a natural affinity for our own and those who are like us and we learn as we grow older that those who don't look or speak like us have, in fact, more in common with us than we first thought or, more importantly, don't pose a threat.
Certainly we can learn racism, nationalism, religious bigotry and speciesism by mixing with that type of people or of living in certain communities.

Where do you draw the line with racism, Ankoù? Is it a visceral distrust of those who are different, or some degree of dislike of them just because they're different, or is it about considering others somehow "less human" or less valuable because they're not the same as (and by extension, not as good as) us? Or, regardless of feelings, do those feelings have to be put into practice by some kind of discrimination or negative action, including disrespectful language, for it to be racism?

Remember the reputation of lager drinkers largely spread by CAMRA types that lager drinkers were somehow "unmanly" The Hobgoblin ad about "What's the matter lager boy, afraid you might taste something?" Would that kind of thing wash today or would it be beerism? Or are we all getting too precious and in need of getting a life?

 

[foxy]

In terms of species I would say we are the most collaborative, yes we have wars but they are forced on us by a few because of the social system we live under. Our slow climb up the evolutionary ladder has taught us to respect and tolerate each other.
We are tribal by nature, most of us will have read the book, 'Lord of the Flies' and it shows how society can break down, and break down easily. All the things that are in our DNA for self preservation are only just under the surface and would burst out in an instant if threatened or frightened.
Fortunately we have come far enough that on the most part can control most of these things for the good of mankind but we can never eliminate them, and if we are honest, banish them from our thoughts.

 

[An Ankoù]

Good author to do the foreward.

I hadn't paid any attention to that. I now see his three books are available as pdf s online. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[DocAnna]

And therein lies the problem we are all genetically programmed to be the beast we are no longer supposed to be. And its no use those thinking they are holier than thou believing they are any different, but they will finger point instead of making allowances. We have come a long way but we are not devoid of those feelings we were programmed to ensure the survival of the fittest and probably never will be

Survival of the fittest is not what our genetics are adapted for - it is an idea that has been built on and is a lot more complex than that. Our genes are about survival of the genes not necessarily the individual. I do hope I'm not being included in the 'holier than though’ group you are describing? I am going to push back a bit on this and ask exactly what you mean by that description? There are people far more cultured, intelligent and well read than me. I have absolutely no problem thinking of myself as less cultured and artistically insightful than them,…, oh and one of my best friends is a minister - she’s definitely holier than me .

 

[Jim Brewster]

Our genes are about survival of the genes not necessarily the individual.

True, and that's where group survival comes into it, with it's good and bad sides.

 

[Clarence]

Survival of the fittest is not what our genetics are adapted for - it is an idea that has been built on and is a lot more complex than that. Our genes are about survival of the genes not necessarily the individual.

I'd be interested in knowing why you say that with such certainty. The fittest coming through is, in many circumstances, most likely to be of most benefit to the tribe / race / species, isn't it? On the other hand the phenomenon of what appears to be "altruism" would seem to support what you say, but we don't see this as dominant behaviour.
Do we?

oh and one of my best friends is a minister - she’s definitely holier than me

A Tory minister? Holier than thy good-self? Now I know you're having a larft!

It turned into a good thread this. Much better than whining about undercarbonated alcopops. Get it down you lads and lasses. And back for another one and think yourselves lucky.

 

[DocAnna]

@Clarence - She’s an Anglican Rector and is far cooler and cleverer than I am.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

No one is born a murderer, a bigot a bully and many other things. It is just the behavior's we are programmed with, our main aim is to survive.

We are all born the same, only a very small percentage choose to be murderers, racists, bigots and bullies the rest of us survive perfectly well without going down that road.


Going back to may racism post -

Football is a perfect example of people not being born racist but learning it later from others.

I wonder how many non racist but easily led football fans have found themselves in a huge group of knuckle dragging morons shouting abuse at a black player and have joined in as they are easily led.

What always amazes me is the same people hero worship their own black players, WTF is that all about.

 

[MashBag]

Well done chippy

 

[foxy]

Survival of the fittest is not what our genetics are adapted for - it is an idea that has been built on and is a lot more complex than that. Our genes are about survival of the genes not necessarily the individual. I do hope I'm not being included in the 'holier than though’ group you are describing? I am going to push back a bit on this and ask exactly what you mean by that description? There are people far more cultured, intelligent and well read than me. I have absolutely no problem thinking of myself as less cultured and artistically insightful than them,…, oh and one of my best friends is a minister - she’s definitely holier than me .

Depends on what school of thought you belong in. Genetics have played a major role in ensuring our survival. My anecdotal evidence is and I have mentioned this before, I don't get a good nights sleep unless I am holding on to something (this is a structure I am talking about) I just thought it was a quirky thing I happened to do, I need a bed with vertical slats to hold onto. If there is nothing there I hold on to the edge of the mattress. It was only when I saw one of my sons doing the same thing at the age of 2 or 3 I decided to look into it further, it is not something he had learned it was passed on through the genes.
I came across an article by Carl Sagan where he suggested that those of us who have this habit of holding on to something while sleeping he believed it came from our distant ancestors while living in the trees.
On a holiday in Borneo I witnessed Orangutans building their nests high in the trees, they could not be filmed sleeping but a guy filmed the with a infra red camera and sure enough they were holding on to a branch with the arm that was beneath them. Carl Sagan went so far as to say that the falling dream is probably something to do with this.
I have asked my son if he still does this and like me cannot get a goodnights sleep without holding on. He is the only one who does this out of all my children. On the other hand he looks like me but takes after his mother, he is impetuous, and try as I might I can't teach him to slow down and think things through before acting.

The description holier than thou is just a metaphor, nothing to do with god who I don't have any time for. The way society has progressed where the word 'black' is being written out of the English language just doesn't seem right, Black book, accident black spot, black board, Black Bess, Dick Turpins horse reduced to being referred to as Bess! While a lot of this nonsense is offensive to a lot of people there are those who, just to feel good about themselves, will say Black is a racist jibe! Pink is homophobic! They are colours, there is no hidden agenda.
Here in Australia there are a lot of problems with Somalians, the news reader will say, 'youths of African appearance were seen running away from the scene' Black and White Minstrels were of African appearance, were the youths running away wearing candy striped jackets and white gloves singing, 'De Camptown Races'?
As for your friend the minister being, 'Cleverer than you'

We are all born the same, only a very small percentage choose to be murderers, racists, bigots and bullies the rest of us survive perfectly well without going down that road.


Going back to may racism post -

Football is a perfect example of people not being born racist but learning it later from others.

I wonder how many non racist but easily led football fans have found themselves in a huge group of knuckle dragging morons shouting abuse at a black player and have joined in as they are easily led.

What always amazes me is the same people hero worship their own black players, WTF is that all about.

A small percentage will murder, be bigots, racist, bully. Why? Because they haven't achieved the control a society expects.
Now where sadistic crimes and premeditated murder comes into it I wouldn't have a clue where that comes from but I am sure that there will be some psychiatric reason. Racism isn't always about colour, culture plays a bigger role. Or what is the difference of calling someone a B.... B...... or a F.. B......? Both are derogatory and meant to hurt.

 

[An Ankoù]

Where do you draw the line with racism, Ankoù? Is it a visceral distrust of those who are different, or some degree of dislike of them just because they're different, or is it about considering others somehow "less human" or less valuable because they're not the same as (and by extension, not as good as) us? Or, regardless of feelings, do those feelings have to be put into practice by some kind of discrimination or negative action, including disrespectful language, for it to be racism?

Interesting question. For me it's has to be a conscious dislike of individuals because they are members of a racial group that I despise. It doesn't necessarily have to be discriminatory. So, for example, if I dislike, say, people from the Indian subcontinent, I'd say that was racism. If I disliked Germans of Americans, it's not clear that those people are from a different "racial" group, but I'd still consider it racism. I don't think religion comes into it and it deserves a different definition. Some people distrust and dislike Muslims, but there are many "Anglo-Saxon" converts to Islam. I have a deep suspicion of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, but that's hardly racism. Many believers despise atheists. I don't think having a natural suspicion of strangers can constitute racism either, provided we're prepared to keep an open mind. And then there's the question of degree. I might not like, say, Italians, very much, but that is insignificant to the absolute loathing and contempt I have for Arsenal supporters (in fact I have no strong feelings about football and its supporters).
I go along with the gist of @foxy 's argument. We are what we are: we have our genetic makeup, our cultural upbringing, our personal experiences and our psychological predispositions. Even our diet contributes to making us what we are. Our racism or lack of racism boils down to this: to what extent do we consider other members of Homo Sapiens to be fully human or as human or of the same moral worth as we are. When we start considering them as less to any extent then we have racism. Are you answered @Clarence?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Going back to may racism post -
Football is a perfect example of people not being born racist but learning it later from others.
I wonder how many non racist but easily led football fans have found themselves in a huge group of knuckle dragging morons shouting abuse at a black player and have joined in as they are easily led.
What always amazes me is the same people hero worship their own black players, WTF is that all about.

Racism isn't always about colour, culture plays a bigger role. Or what is the difference of calling someone a B.... B...... or a F.. B......? Both are derogatory and meant to hurt.

I would not consider calling someone a FB being racist as people of all colour can be fat, when a racist calls a black person a BB it is because of the colour of their skin.

 

[foxy]

My wife hates Muslims, but not for their Islamic beliefs more for the treatment of the women. When we have travelled

People of all colour can be fat only black people are called BB by racists!

You are missing the point. Racist isn't people of colour! Its a race, could be Scottish, Irish, American, Kiwi or Australian. All mainly derived from Celts. But why stop at race or colour? Could be an antagonising remark to many other descriptive traits to a human being, big nose, big ears etc. etc.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

You are missing the point. Racist isn't people of colour! I

No i am not you said we are "genetically programmed to be the beast we are" (below) i am saying we are not born racists its learned from racist parents and people racists hang with hence my football crowd analogy.

And therein lies the problem we are all genetically programmed to be the beast we are no longer supposed to be.

Its a very long time since i have heard "Have you heard the one about an English, Irish and Scotsman who walked into a bar" racism is still rife in football and that is about the colour of the players skin, this was last week -

 

[foxy]

No i am not you said we are "genetically programmed to be the beast we are" (below) i am saying we are not born racists its learned from racist parents and people racists hang with hence my football crowd analogy.

Its a very long time since i have heard "Have you heard the one about an English, Irish and Scotsman who walked into a bar" racism is still rife in football and that is about the colour of the players skin.

Racism in the most cases isn't learned. If a white child at kinder is playing nicely with a child of different origin then that relationship is likely to continue. Culture is the stumbling block. Hence my wife's opinions about Muslims.

 

[Rodcx500z]

In this thread i have noticed no one has mentioned (correct me if i wrong) intergration which i think is key if you don't intergrate you can't get on, for example if i go on holiday say to Spain or Italy i want to sample their culture their food, i don,t want to seek out what i eat at home it really grates me when i see and hear people in Spain seeking out English bars and cafes wtf are you doing there, it doesn't matter were in the world you are if you don't intergrate you will never be truly happy

 

[Kerby]

I would not consider calling someone a FB being racist as people of all colour can be fat, when a racist calls a black person a BB it is because of the colour of their skin.

Agreed Chippy. Also and I would argue crucially, people have no control over their skin colour or ethnic origin, but are entirely responsible for their own weight. Doesn’t make either insult ok, just say.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Racism in the most cases isn't learned.

I think your post below contradicts that, its only when the white child comes into contact with racists that they then may become racist.

If a white child at kinder is playing nicely with a child of different origin then that relationship is likely to continue.

 

[foxy]

?????