No secondary fermentation

[MuckyNeighbour]

I bottled my Black Forest stout beer with 1tsp sugar on 6 Dec 2021 and placed the bottles in a fermenting bin, on a heat pad and lagged the inside of the bin with bubble wrap. The temp variation is negligible and stays around 20c but, judging by the “give” in the plastic bottle, no secondary fermentation is taking place. There’s a small amount of sediment in the bottles so there must be some activity going on. I usually see some evidence of secondary after just a couple of days so am concerned that something is wrong. Any ideas what’s happening?

 

[sifty]

What percentage alcohol was it? I've had a Belgian golden strong ale and a Russian imperial stout both take a long time to get going (8.8 and 10% respectively).

Was a good fortnight till the test PET bottles firmed up. I was worried till I read higher alcohol ones can take a while...

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

What percentage alcohol was it? I've had a Belgian golden strong ale and a Russian imperial stout both take a long time to get going (8.8 and 10% respectively).

Was a good fortnight till the test PET bottles firmed up. I was worried till I read higher alcohol ones can take a while...

About 15.5% so, hopefully, that’s the reason

 

[Richard_H]

Sh!t the bed that's a wine .
In all seriousness some yeasts will not cope with that level of alcohol, what yeast did you use and how much?

For reference my Belgian tripel from last December was very flat for the first 3 months. At a year old its not exactly lively (probably under primed) but it does now develop a nice thick head that lasts, a dark beer that strong will be good for a few years in the bottle. Stash it somewhere safe and trying a bottle in a month, then another in 2 months until your happy with it

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

Sh!t the bed that's a wine .
In all seriousness some yeasts will not cope with that level of alcohol, what yeast did you use and how much?

For reference my Belgian tripel from last December was very flat for the first 3 months. At a year old its not exactly lively (probably under primed) but it does now develop a nice thick head that lasts, a dark beer that strong will be good for a few years in the bottle. Stash it somewhere safe and trying a bottle in a month, then another in 2 months until your happy with it

I used 5g US West Coast Yeast (Mangrove Jack M44) for a 5L batch. I chose that one as it is supposed to be able to cope with high abv beers.

i think I’ll leave the bottles on the heat pad for another week then transfer them to a dark cupboard to condition. Maybe try one mid-February for my birthday.

 

[DavidDetroit]

As mentioned, those will take longer--a lot longer in my experience. I would up the temperature to 22°C.
I don't know how you were able to squeeze 15% ABV from M44. I was not aware that it could take that kind of beating.
Your ABV was calculated by actual measurement? Like (OG-FG) X 131.25 or something similar?

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

As mentioned, those will take longer--a lot longer in my experience. I would up the temperature to 22°C.
I don't know how you were able to squeeze 15% ABV from M44. I was not aware that it could take that kind of beating.
Your ABV was calculated by actual measurement? Like (OG-FG) X 131.25 or something similar?

I used an old hydrometer which gave an initial reading, pre-fermentation, of 16.5% potential abv on 21 Nov then, on 3 Dec and on 6 Dec it read 1.5% so I’m guessing the difference is the likely abv. I was hoping for a rather tamer stout but threw in 1kg spray malt after the boil. A second batch, without spray, came out at 6.5% abv

 

[An Ankoù]

I used an old hydrometer which gave an initial reading, pre-fermentation, of 16.5% potential abv on 21 Nov then, on 3 Dec and on 6 Dec it read 1.5% so I’m guessing the difference is the likely abv. I was hoping for a rather tamer stout but threw in 1kg spray malt after the boil. A second batch, without spray, came out at 6.5% abv

There's something not quite right there. We don't use those scales with beer, but my hydrometer also has a potential alcohol scale so I see that a pot. alc. of 16.5% is an OG of about 1105 and a pot. alc. of 1.5% gives a final gravity around 1010. Plugging those into the Brewer's Friend calculator gives 12.5% on the "standard" scale with 90% apparent attenuation. M44 is a high attenuatiuon yeast, but even so, if you'd made up the fermentables with sugar, I'd buy it- but with spray malt, I'd expect a higher FG. Anyway, it's nearer 12.5% than 16.5%, I'd referment in the bottle with champagne or cider yeast or the tiniest pinch of Fermentis Safale F2.

 

[DavidDetroit]

I used an old hydrometer which gave an initial reading, pre-fermentation, of 16.5% potential abv on 21 Nov then, on 3 Dec and on 6 Dec it read 1.5% so I’m guessing the difference is the likely abv. I was hoping for a rather tamer stout but threw in 1kg spray malt after the boil. A second batch, without spray, came out at 6.5% abv

Cool.
I'm not familiar with that. I'm pretty sure you there has to be an OG and an FG to work with. If you recorded both, we can figure it out.
Edit: Also, did you get two stable FGs before you bottled?

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

There's something not quite right there. We don't use those scales with beer, but my hydrometer also has a potential alcohol scale so I see that a pot. alc. of 16.5% is an OG of about 1105 and a pot. alc. of 1.5% gives a final gravity around 1010. Plugging those into the Brewer's Friend calculator gives 12.5% on the "standard" scale with 90% apparent attenuation. M44 is a high attenuatiuon yeast, but even so, if you'd made up the fermentables with sugar, I'd buy it- but with spray malt, I'd expect a higher FG. Anyway, it's nearer 12.5% than 16.5%, I'd referment in the bottle with champagne or cider yeast or the tiniest pinch of Fermentis Safale F2.

The full measurements were: 16.5 at 22C then 1.5 at 25C
The other side of my hydrometer suggests 16.5 is 110 and 1.5 is 22 (see image)
I reckon I need a new hydrometer!!

 

[An Ankoù]

The full measurements were: 16.5 at 22C then 1.5 at 25C
The other side of my hydrometer suggests 16.5 is 110 and 1.5 is 22 (see image)
I reckon I need a new hydrometer!!

OG 1110 and FG 1022 seems more reasonable. That would give you an abv between 11.5% and 13% depending which scale we accept. The FG of 1022 seems more likely.
There's nothing wrong with your hydrometer provided it's calibrated properly, in fact if you're using the same hydrometer for OG and FG, it doesn't even need calibrating as the errors cancel each other out!

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

OG 1110 and FG 1022 seems more reasonable. That would give you an abv between 11.5% and 13% depending which scale we accept. The FG of 1022 seems more likely.

I couldn’t work out the sg scale - it seemed different to my newer hydrometer (which I broke). Seeing you convert the numbers in that way makes it much clearer. It’s obvious now!!

 

[Nicks90]

Whichever scale you are using, that's a mighty beer!

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

Whichever scale you are using, that's a mighty beer!

I can give you the recipe if you want.

 

[sifty]

If it's any consolation I've just tried my RIS.
36 days since bottling and it's been in a temp controlled fridge at 20 degs the whole time. A PET bottle and firm to squeeze but very little carbonation yet. No head and slight fizz in the mouth, but taste is ok. Was always going to be a long term conditioning beer, but I may bump it up to 22 degs for a month...

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

There's something not quite right there. We don't use those scales with beer, but my hydrometer also has a potential alcohol scale so I see that a pot. alc. of 16.5% is an OG of about 1105 and a pot. alc. of 1.5% gives a final gravity around 1010. Plugging those into the Brewer's Friend calculator gives 12.5% on the "standard" scale with 90% apparent attenuation. M44 is a high attenuatiuon yeast, but even so, if you'd made up the fermentables with sugar, I'd buy it- but with spray malt, I'd expect a higher FG. Anyway, it's nearer 12.5% than 16.5%, I'd referment in the bottle with champagne or cider yeast or the tiniest pinch of Fermentis Safale F2.

Still no apparent secondary so will try adding some champagne yeast as you suggest. I've bought some Lalvin EC-1118. How much should I add to each 500ml bottle? I'm guessing only a pinch.

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

If it's any consolation I've just tried my RIS.
36 days since bottling and it's been in a temp controlled fridge at 20 degs the whole time. A PET bottle and firm to squeeze but very little carbonation yet. No head and slight fizz in the mouth, but taste is ok. Was always going to be a long term conditioning beer, but I may bump it up to 22 degs for a month...

I made two different batches. stupidly, for one batch I used only glass Grolsch style bottles so can’t get a gauge from squeezing them. The second batch (with two PET bottles) hasn’t shown any sign of secondary so I added some more yeast today. I was going to add more yeast to both batches but, when I opened a bottle of the first batch it fizzed up quite nicely so I’ve resealed that and I’ll leave that batch a bit longer before moving to the conditioning stage.

 

[DavidDetroit]

stupidly

I wouldn't apply that word unless you've done the same thing a dozen times in a row.
I'm not sure how much to put in each bottle (to answer your question).
You're a month in, per your OP. It has taken months for mine to carb. You run the risk of over-carbonating them. A teaspoon of sugar was fine. Try one mid-Feb for your birthday.

 

[sifty]

If it's any consolation I've just tried my RIS.
36 days since bottling and it's been in a temp controlled fridge at 20 degs the whole time. A PET bottle and firm to squeeze but very little carbonation yet. No head and slight fizz in the mouth, but taste is ok. Was always going to be a long term conditioning beer, but I may bump it up to 22 degs for a month...

Update. I gave my bottles a few upendings to rouse any lazy yeast cells, put back in a 22 deg fridge, and poured one tonight. Carbonation is bloody near perfect. I left a couple of bottles undisturbed so will be interesting to see if giving things a shake up affected anything...

 

[MuckyNeighbour]

by way of an update: I ended up drinking the flat beer and it was delicious (was expecting either a sugary taste or a yeasty one but got neither.) I have no idea why there was no (or very little secondary fermentation but it’s happened again with a recipe for a Russian Imperial Stout. I’m wondering whether decanting the primary brew before bottling is having an effect. I do this to reduce sediment in the bottles but am I also excluding too much live yeast?