IainM
Landlord.
Should be fine. If its in secondary its already past the at-risk phase.
Overheated ferment
- Thread starter oddjob5
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Delmol
Active Member
I wouldn't worry too much.
Just brewed myself a Cooper's Real Ale, it fermented completely in just over 2 days due to the heat.
Tried a bottle and it's lovely! No off flavours or anything like that.
Bar-Steward
Active Member
I've just taken the hop bag out of my Festival Suffolk (I tipped the hops into the bag and weighted it with a few glass marbles - as mentioned on another thread).
Despite the 28C earlier, the smell of the bag (hops plus worty remains) was lovely. It immediately took me back to 1970 and D of E hike around the Peak District in sweltering weather. On finding a village shop / offy, we had a whip round and the biggest and over-18-looking was volunteered to enter and attempt to buy beer. He appeared with large bottles of Forest Brown, and that is exactly the smell eminating from the hop bag.
Despite the 28C earlier, the smell of the bag (hops plus worty remains) was lovely. It immediately took me back to 1970 and D of E hike around the Peak District in sweltering weather. On finding a village shop / offy, we had a whip round and the biggest and over-18-looking was volunteered to enter and attempt to buy beer. He appeared with large bottles of Forest Brown, and that is exactly the smell eminating from the hop bag.
ericmark
Regular.
Well refrigeration now turned off. Both brews at end of ferment and a little extra heat will help finish them off. I will admit one will have charcoal added anyway to remove any off tastes. But it does not harm to leave a little longer to clean up before I start adding chemicals and using charcoal.
Without refrigeration I would not attempt a normal brew this time of year. But I have found the move to temperature control was not as easy as expected. It was luck to have a fridge/freezer to use, but in the early days the controller would only do heating or cooling not both together, so needed a new controller before I could really use the fridge/freezer.
First error was temperature measured and required. I had a stick on thermometer and had worked out 17ðC was minimum temperature for brewing, but using a digital unit with the sensor held against the fermentor under a sponge for insulation I found that the stick on thermometer was an average between ambient air and fermentor so real minimum with beers I brew was 18ðC. So today never set below 18.5ðC.
The same is true for high temperatures because the stick on strip says 28ðC does not mean the fermentor is really that cool, it is more likely sitting at 30ðC as the room being at likely 25ðC is cooling the stick on strip.
At first I thought I was getting massive over shoot with heating only, but then realised it was the fermenting which was causing most of the excess temperature. Using a fridge box as insulation is all well and good, but once the fermentation starts there is no way for heat to escape, so once average temperature of garage exceeded 16ðC heat only temperature control was out.
There was some over shoot however due to heater used, it should have as little mass as possible so it does not store heat, and also not produce too much heat, I went down from a 18W heater to an 8W heater and original was a heavy underfloor demo heating tile, new one was a simple bulb.
Cooling was far easier, having had over shoot with heating I expected same with cooling, but that was not the case, sensor on fermentor the freezer air temperature dropped to around 8ðC when set point was 18.5ðC and I expected to see fermentor temperature dip, but that simply did not happen. But it is a frost free freezer so there is a fan built in.
I now realise I was setting the temperature too low, I used 18.5ðC as with heating only it tended to over shoot so even if it did still never exceed 22ðC, but setting that low fermentation simply takes too long, the original 20 day before temperature control was extended to 30 days at 18.5ðC so now set to 19.5ðC for first 10 days and 21ðC for second 10 days. First 10 in freezer with heating and cooling, second 10 days in fridge with heating only. With that back to 20 days a brew.
Before temperature control I would leave bottles in kitchen for 5 days before moving to shed, after I left in garage, but garage was too cold and beer had not conditioned when I came to drink so now the bottled beer goes in the fridge with fermentor for 10 days, this has a double use, first it allows it to condition, and two it stores and releases heat so with hot spell just over fridge only hit 23ðC when set to 21ðC because the bottles absorbed some of the heat, when it seemed it was going too high I moved bottles to freezer at 19.5ðC for 1/2 day then back to fridge to cool it down.
I found the motor cools freezer first so since it never hits -18ðC no cooling goes to fridge.
It took some time to adjust to using refrigeration, and I am still monitoring and learning, but now running at 10 days at 19.5~20ðC then 10 days at 20.5~21ðC then bottle and further 10 days at 20.5~21ðC so flat out a brew every 10 days, however I don't drink that much, so tend to try specials, at the moment a orange brandy, the specials tend to take more than 20 days total so I average out at around 40 pints every 18 days. Can't get all bottles normally 12 into fridge so normally one goes into house for testing. All plastic bottles.
If buying a unit I would get a fridge, but the fridge/freezer works well, in freezer no air lock, not enough room. The last summer brewing was 2013 and from memory the summer beer was OK but not as good as winter beer, I would put body warmers on the fermentor during winter with air lock sticking through the neck, I would monitor air lock, test s.g. and beer could take anywhere from 10 to 30 days. Now I have a bottling of maybe 1/2 hour, all 2 litre pop bottles, followed by a clean 1/2 hour same day, new brew also takes around 1/2 hour often next day, labelling likely the longest at 3/4 hour some time in the next week, move fermentor to fridge 2 minutes next day transfer to clean fermentor 1/2 hour, transport beer to shed 15 minutes.
I test s.g. at start and finish never in between. Some times don't bother as start I know what it will be. Whole process like a production line. This brew is the first in ages I have been waiting to taste, used brew enhancer for first time want to see how it has worked. However since temperature is controlled I will know if brew enhancer or not which causes taste change, other wise I would be wondering what to blame on the heat.
I now can't believe it took me so long to start using the fridge/freezer to cool, I was determining to use heat only, but lack of stock forced my hand. Glad I have, now even in winter I will leave freezer plugged in. (assuming there is a brew on)
Without refrigeration I would not attempt a normal brew this time of year. But I have found the move to temperature control was not as easy as expected. It was luck to have a fridge/freezer to use, but in the early days the controller would only do heating or cooling not both together, so needed a new controller before I could really use the fridge/freezer.
First error was temperature measured and required. I had a stick on thermometer and had worked out 17ðC was minimum temperature for brewing, but using a digital unit with the sensor held against the fermentor under a sponge for insulation I found that the stick on thermometer was an average between ambient air and fermentor so real minimum with beers I brew was 18ðC. So today never set below 18.5ðC.
The same is true for high temperatures because the stick on strip says 28ðC does not mean the fermentor is really that cool, it is more likely sitting at 30ðC as the room being at likely 25ðC is cooling the stick on strip.
At first I thought I was getting massive over shoot with heating only, but then realised it was the fermenting which was causing most of the excess temperature. Using a fridge box as insulation is all well and good, but once the fermentation starts there is no way for heat to escape, so once average temperature of garage exceeded 16ðC heat only temperature control was out.
There was some over shoot however due to heater used, it should have as little mass as possible so it does not store heat, and also not produce too much heat, I went down from a 18W heater to an 8W heater and original was a heavy underfloor demo heating tile, new one was a simple bulb.
Cooling was far easier, having had over shoot with heating I expected same with cooling, but that was not the case, sensor on fermentor the freezer air temperature dropped to around 8ðC when set point was 18.5ðC and I expected to see fermentor temperature dip, but that simply did not happen. But it is a frost free freezer so there is a fan built in.
I now realise I was setting the temperature too low, I used 18.5ðC as with heating only it tended to over shoot so even if it did still never exceed 22ðC, but setting that low fermentation simply takes too long, the original 20 day before temperature control was extended to 30 days at 18.5ðC so now set to 19.5ðC for first 10 days and 21ðC for second 10 days. First 10 in freezer with heating and cooling, second 10 days in fridge with heating only. With that back to 20 days a brew.
Before temperature control I would leave bottles in kitchen for 5 days before moving to shed, after I left in garage, but garage was too cold and beer had not conditioned when I came to drink so now the bottled beer goes in the fridge with fermentor for 10 days, this has a double use, first it allows it to condition, and two it stores and releases heat so with hot spell just over fridge only hit 23ðC when set to 21ðC because the bottles absorbed some of the heat, when it seemed it was going too high I moved bottles to freezer at 19.5ðC for 1/2 day then back to fridge to cool it down.
I found the motor cools freezer first so since it never hits -18ðC no cooling goes to fridge.
It took some time to adjust to using refrigeration, and I am still monitoring and learning, but now running at 10 days at 19.5~20ðC then 10 days at 20.5~21ðC then bottle and further 10 days at 20.5~21ðC so flat out a brew every 10 days, however I don't drink that much, so tend to try specials, at the moment a orange brandy, the specials tend to take more than 20 days total so I average out at around 40 pints every 18 days. Can't get all bottles normally 12 into fridge so normally one goes into house for testing. All plastic bottles.
If buying a unit I would get a fridge, but the fridge/freezer works well, in freezer no air lock, not enough room. The last summer brewing was 2013 and from memory the summer beer was OK but not as good as winter beer, I would put body warmers on the fermentor during winter with air lock sticking through the neck, I would monitor air lock, test s.g. and beer could take anywhere from 10 to 30 days. Now I have a bottling of maybe 1/2 hour, all 2 litre pop bottles, followed by a clean 1/2 hour same day, new brew also takes around 1/2 hour often next day, labelling likely the longest at 3/4 hour some time in the next week, move fermentor to fridge 2 minutes next day transfer to clean fermentor 1/2 hour, transport beer to shed 15 minutes.
I test s.g. at start and finish never in between. Some times don't bother as start I know what it will be. Whole process like a production line. This brew is the first in ages I have been waiting to taste, used brew enhancer for first time want to see how it has worked. However since temperature is controlled I will know if brew enhancer or not which causes taste change, other wise I would be wondering what to blame on the heat.
I now can't believe it took me so long to start using the fridge/freezer to cool, I was determining to use heat only, but lack of stock forced my hand. Glad I have, now even in winter I will leave freezer plugged in. (assuming there is a brew on)
IainM
Landlord.
Well, I bottled my Mosaic SMaTH, and the trail jar was pretty nasty. Very hot and fusally. I could just about detect some grainy maltiness and some hops at the end, but the hotness was overpowering. I'll leave it for a bit to see if it improves but I think this will end up down the drain. To be honest, I wish I'd saved the dry hopping hops for something else. The yeast was Wyeast American Ale II.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Do you have any ability to cold condition/lager? As I've read this can help with fusils
IainM
Landlord.
Unfortunately not at the moment. I need to move house, and get space for a brew fridge.
ericmark
Regular.
Since answering this post I have also bought a Coopers Stout. Most the UK kits state 18ðC to 24ðC as ideal temperature range, but Coopers state 21ðC-27ðC and say the yeast will tolerate 18ðC-32ðC (64ðF-90ðF) so it would seem the Coopers Stout should have been OK in our hot spell? It actually says bottle after about 4 days at 27ðC or 6 days at 21ðC, I have never had a brew ready to bottle in 4 days!
It says use 1kg Brew Enhancer 3 what ever that is. I will guess on a mixture of sugars and spray dried malt? I know it got hot, but 23 litres of liquid takes some heating and cooling so likely the average temperature was well within the 27ðC. So it should be OK.
I stuck my brew into the garage freezer as normal set at 19.5ðC to 20.5ðC and it took nearly a day to even get started. I am planing on the normal 20 day, but just in case tomorrow I will test the s.g. the start s.g. was 1.042 with treacle should have been 1.038 according to instructions.
It says use 1kg Brew Enhancer 3 what ever that is. I will guess on a mixture of sugars and spray dried malt? I know it got hot, but 23 litres of liquid takes some heating and cooling so likely the average temperature was well within the 27ðC. So it should be OK.
I stuck my brew into the garage freezer as normal set at 19.5ðC to 20.5ðC and it took nearly a day to even get started. I am planing on the normal 20 day, but just in case tomorrow I will test the s.g. the start s.g. was 1.042 with treacle should have been 1.038 according to instructions.
IainM
Landlord.
Yeah, the Cooper's proprietary yeast used in the original series is pretty bulletproof. It almost never gets stuck, and keeps a good neutral flavor profile over a wide range of temperatures.
oddjob5
New Member
Just a quick update. I bottled my beer and a quick taste during bottling seemed good. Im looking forward to tasting it in a week or so. Hopefully the brew was not affected by the hot weather. The experience has made me look into controlling the temp while fermenting. I dont have the room for a fridge/freezer solution in a permanent spot so I am thinking of testing a peltier system cooling/heating a coolbox or fermenting chamber so i can set a temp and leave it while the yeast does its stuff. I have seen a youtube showing a peltier being used to cool a chamber down to 5c. Being able to control fermentation temp would be very useful.
I suggest that you check out this Thread before you nip out and buy a Cool Box with a peltier system ...
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63839&highlight=cool
I personally wouldn't recommend it for the reasons given in the Thread. Sorry.
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63839&highlight=cool
I personally wouldn't recommend it for the reasons given in the Thread. Sorry.
oddjob5
New Member
Thank you for bringing that thread up. back to the drawing board. Frustrating that you have to resort to a fridge to be able to keep the fv at a controlled temp
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
The fridge is the cheap option. I have one of these
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58966
You can now buy them at Get er Brewed for about �ã50. They deffo work as I have a stout in mine a a steady 18C
Another option is not to bother trying to keep your ferment at a controlled temp and use heat tolerant yeast. Like MJ work horse and Mauribrw 514
Be patient, in a few months you will be looking at keeping your brews warm which is much easier. :thumb: :thumb:
Sitting the FV in a tray full of cold water, draping a wet cotton towel over the top and blowing air across it with a fan will drop the temperature below ambient. (If you don't believe me, wet your hands in water and then hang them to dry in front of an ordinary fan!)
The towel will "wick" the water from the tray as it dries out so obviously, the water in the tray needs to be replenished every so often; at which time it is recommended that you also wet down the towel as well.
ENJOY. For each problem there is a low cost solution; which may include waiting for winter! :whistle:
ericmark
Regular.
Have you tried using a cool box in the car? Back in 1981 in Algeria I had a box for keeping the snake bite serum which since no longer working the desert was used for our bacon and kept it frozen, so they can work very well, it was connected to a large 120 Ah battery and we swapped battery every day. However the one I have at home is no where near as good, for a trip of 4 hours using the cool block you place in freezer was just as good if not better. In real terms to use it you would need to take it apart and rebuilt it around your fermentor. The aluminium cooling fins would need to make contact. Or you would need to direct the cool air around the fermentor. To brew in the box there is not enough area exposed to cool the liquid down, if you built a box around the fermentor then you could in theroy at least direct the air to circulate around the fermentor sides.
I also looked at the idea of towelling cover for the fermentor and a water bath plus fan. The problem is the only item you can auto control is the fan, it would require you to every 3 hours check temperature, temperature does not alter quickly so every 3 hours is likely enough. Believe me I looked at all this before I started using an old fridge/freezer.
Even putting body warmers on a brew in winter is a problem, when it first starts it needs nothing, but as time goes on it needs to be kept warm, add the body warmer too late and it is already too cool, I had a method of warming I used an old demo under floor heating tile, but I tried to monitor the temperature manually and although the tile was only 18W I ended up over heating the brew many times.
In the house there is a reasonable chance of maintaining the temperature as we as humans want about the same temperature, however moving to garage was a problem. The box I was using the old fridge/freezer fridge compartment would retain the heat and in the heart of winter allow brewing using the under floor heating tile and a MH1210A controller very like the STC-1000 however as spring arrived the insulation of the fridge was too good and I would over shoot, up to around 16úC ambient I was OK, after that really needed the fridge door open. I considered all sorts of methods to auto open the door, I looked at the units that open the green house windows. However I then looked at the freezer compartment and thought I would buy a STC-1000 which controls heating and cooling (The MH1210A was heat or cool) and remove the air lock and use freezer compartment. For me this worked and I stopped looking for other methods.
Although a fridge is big, so is a fermentor, I have used a fridge which was no longer used in the kitchen so it is far bigger than required, but if I selected a fridge which was a neat fit with the fermentor then it would not be much bigger than the fermentor. Only way I could see to reduce size is to cool inside the fermentor not outside. There is no real reason why you should not have a coil of pipe inside the fermentor other than to problem with cleaning. Theory you could fit a solenoid to switch the water flow on and off same as used to feed water into your washing machine. And the solenoid could be switched by a temperature controller. However it does seem rather a waste of water. You could also use a small pump like used in caravans to pump cold water around when required. But by time you rig it all up likely it will use same space as a fridge.
I also looked at the idea of towelling cover for the fermentor and a water bath plus fan. The problem is the only item you can auto control is the fan, it would require you to every 3 hours check temperature, temperature does not alter quickly so every 3 hours is likely enough. Believe me I looked at all this before I started using an old fridge/freezer.
Even putting body warmers on a brew in winter is a problem, when it first starts it needs nothing, but as time goes on it needs to be kept warm, add the body warmer too late and it is already too cool, I had a method of warming I used an old demo under floor heating tile, but I tried to monitor the temperature manually and although the tile was only 18W I ended up over heating the brew many times.
In the house there is a reasonable chance of maintaining the temperature as we as humans want about the same temperature, however moving to garage was a problem. The box I was using the old fridge/freezer fridge compartment would retain the heat and in the heart of winter allow brewing using the under floor heating tile and a MH1210A controller very like the STC-1000 however as spring arrived the insulation of the fridge was too good and I would over shoot, up to around 16úC ambient I was OK, after that really needed the fridge door open. I considered all sorts of methods to auto open the door, I looked at the units that open the green house windows. However I then looked at the freezer compartment and thought I would buy a STC-1000 which controls heating and cooling (The MH1210A was heat or cool) and remove the air lock and use freezer compartment. For me this worked and I stopped looking for other methods.
Although a fridge is big, so is a fermentor, I have used a fridge which was no longer used in the kitchen so it is far bigger than required, but if I selected a fridge which was a neat fit with the fermentor then it would not be much bigger than the fermentor. Only way I could see to reduce size is to cool inside the fermentor not outside. There is no real reason why you should not have a coil of pipe inside the fermentor other than to problem with cleaning. Theory you could fit a solenoid to switch the water flow on and off same as used to feed water into your washing machine. And the solenoid could be switched by a temperature controller. However it does seem rather a waste of water. You could also use a small pump like used in caravans to pump cold water around when required. But by time you rig it all up likely it will use same space as a fridge.
Totally off topic but can't resist, sorry! :whistle:
In Iran in 1978 at a plant called NGL 600 we had a box nailed to the Control Room wall with "Snake Bite Kit" stamped on it.
I was initially reassured that we had a snake bite kit on site but curiosity finally got the better of me so I opened the box to discover no Anti-venom Serum but:
o A 50cm length of perished rubber tubing,
o An equally perished rubber "bulb",
o A single Gillette razor blade,
o A yellowed two-page "Instruction Manual" that had a diagram on one side and on the other (in Farsi and English) instructions as follows:
"Wrap the tube around the patient's limb near the bite.
Use the razor blade to make a deep cut across the puncture wound(s).
Use the suction cup to suck the venom out of the wound.
Take the patient to the nearest hospital for further treatment as soon as possible."
A Texan working with me at the time summed everything up when he said:Use the razor blade to make a deep cut across the puncture wound(s).
Use the suction cup to suck the venom out of the wound.
Take the patient to the nearest hospital for further treatment as soon as possible."
"And tell the patient he may as well kiss his ass goodbye!"
Happy Days! :thumb: :thumb:
geigercntr
Miembro senior
Cheers for the link. Was looking at those. Have you noticed a definite improvement in quality since you started using it? (even better: have you split batches of wort to test with venom without the cool bag?)
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
I would definately say so. I haven't done any split batches because I cant be bothered to do so, tbh
One of the biggest reasons for improvement in my beer is that I am now able to use liquid yeasts (which is one on the main reasons I got it) as I would only be able to use them for about 3 of months of the year. Being able to use appropriate yeast types for the type of beer I'm making is the big plus of this bag for me. I am now able to make great pseudo lagers (fermented at 15C) and use lovely English strains for my bitters without the temp running away from me, throughout the year
geigercntr
Miembro senior
Brill, cheers for that.
Just noticed my autospell... I'm assuming/hoping that you're not using 'venom' either with or without a coolbag... (if you ARE, pls provide the recipe)
Just noticed my autospell... I'm assuming/hoping that you're not using 'venom' either with or without a coolbag... (if you ARE, pls provide the recipe)
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Hamster venom - my secret ingredient 
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