Reducing trub when using a hop spider

[Frisp]

I boiled an extract (DME) Pilsner in my brewzilla at the weekend .

As an AIO and hop spider newbie I was taken aback at the amount of cold break trub that made it through to my fermenter.

In the good old days when pellet hops were considered the "dark side" much of this trub was caught in the bed formed by the whole leaf hops.

I realise trub isnt a huge issue in the fermenter but Id rather not lose 2L of fermentation space to it..

So to all of you who use hop spiders, how do you reduce the amount of trub going into the fermenter

 

[The Baron]

The hop spider will not stop break only hop debris.
I let the kettle settle before transfer and depending on your system (AIO) I use the tap then put fine seive between the FV and the tap to try and catch any ****. If you are suffering really bad with break it will soon clog the sieve.
I have got to be honest I used to suffer from this but I have tuned my brewing process over the years and it is hard to put my finger on one thing that improved it(maybe the Protofloc overdose).
I do skim the hot break with a spoon to remove most of it I always use Protofloc and whirlpool at the end then leave the trub to settle for at least 15+ minutes before transfer to the FV.
Using too much Protofloc can cause a soup of floating trub so I only use 1/3rd of a tablet and never a full one in a standard brew.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Same as Baron. I let it settle for 15m at the end of the boil. Then pump off the clear wort from above the settled trub.

I pump via a CFC chiller and so all cold break makes it into the fermenter. You get losses at all stages of the brewery... It's a fact if life and it'll drive you mad trying to get rid of every last litre of loss. Think if it as "I can get to brew again sooner"

 

[Frisp]

The hop spider will not stop break only hop debris.
I let the kettle settle before transfer and depending on your system (AIO) I use the tap then put fine seive between the FV and the tap to try and catch any ****. If you are suffering really bad with break it will soon clog the sieve.
I have got to be honest I used to suffer from this but I have tuned my brewing process over the years and it is hard to put my finger on one thing that improved it(maybe the Protofloc overdose).
I do skim the hot break with a spoon to remove most of it I always use Protofloc and whirlpool at the end then leave the trub to settle for at least 15+ minutes before transfer to the FV.
Using too much Protofloc can cause a soup of floating trub so I only use 1/3rd of a tablet and never a full one in a standard brew.

good points. I used 1/2 a protofloc for 20L preboil volume, so overdosing would explain the massive qty of merde.
im wondering if a sterilised veg bag in the neck of my chubby fermenter would do the job
i didnt whirlpool but i did let it settle a while before pulling a sample tube (800ml) of what looked like soggy cement which went down the sink. I then pulled a less mucky sample which settled out to this.

im happy with the clarity just not the 25 mm of cement at the bottom

 

[Frisp]

Same as Baron. I let it settle for 15m at the end of the boil. Then pump off the clear wort from above the settled trub.

I pump via a CFC chiller and so all cold break makes it into the fermenter. You get losses at all stages of the brewery... It's a fact if life and it'll drive you mad trying to get rid of every last litre of loss. Think if it as "I can get to brew again sooner"

One of the advantages of the gen4 brewzilla is the centre drain in the bottom, its becomes a disadvantage when dealing with sludge..

I have set all my "wish list" recipes up in Brewfather to have 20L going into the fermenter to try and get a clean corny keg full out after fermentation. depending on how I manage the gunk I may have to up this to 21L .

I suppose its not as much the losses as it is me just not wanting to have a lot of sludge going into the fermenter.

 

[The Baron]

As Agent has said trub is not generally a issue as it should settle out but as you have said it's not the clarity that's a issue it is the loss in the FV.
A lot of brewers just tip everything into the FV and it usually settles as I have said earlier but I am from the school of less **** in less to settle in the first place, using a veg bag is fine but it will collect until it clogs so if there is plenty of trub it will soon slow the flow through it. When I use the sieve at least you can stop the flow and empty it with a quick upside down tap or even flush it through with a tap.
For some reason I rarely get a issue nowadays and I am sure you will eventually as you perfect your process but until then sieve/bag will help if it please you

 

[The Baron]

Another thought is part of the issue the flour in your crush too as I now use the Gen 4 and it seems to suffer from mash flow if the crush is too fine with flour.
I am going to sieve my grain on my next brew to minimise the flour and see if that helps with flow(a side issue that may be contributing). I would think some of the flour removed will only be a small amount of loss which I can replace with the same weight of grain.
Ps I get a higher EFF with the Gen4 than with my old AIO-minimum of 80% against 70-75 so the flour could part of the reason my EFF is higher(Gen4 more susceptible to it)as with BIAB a fine crush is better for EFF.

 

[Frisp]

Another thought is part of the issue the flour in your crush too as I now use the Gen 4 and it seems to suffer from mash flow if the crush is too fine with flour.
I am going to sieve my grain on my next brew to minimise the flour and see if that helps with flow(a side issue that may be contributing). I would think some of the flour removed will only be a small amount of loss which I can replace with the same weight of grain.
Ps I get a higher EFF with the Gen4 than with my old AIO-minimum of 80% against 70-75 so the flour could part of the reason my EFF is higher(Gen4 more susceptible to it)as with BIAB a fine crush is better for EFF.

Ill get a better idea of trub levels when I start doing AG , this one was as much a boil off test on a new BZ using DME as its was a brewday.

I was just taken aback with teh amount of it that came out of this one.

Being old school Id still still rather use a bed of leaf hops as a filter, but they are not as available as they once were.

as I have said earlier but I am from the school of less **** in less to settle in the first place,

Yep!

 

[Agentgonzo]

Is it possible to turn this into an advantage, and drain off the sludge first (and discard it) then continue with the rest of the wort?

 

[Frisp]

Is it possible to turn this into an advantage, and drain off the sludge first (and discard it) then continue with the rest of the wort?

good point. Ill find out as I go.. my BZ has a dished heat plate below teh FB, so I suppose if its allowed to settle long enough only the trub that slips past those two would make it out the drain.

 

[The Baron]

Not to hijack this thread but to show that crush is critical on some AIO's as I said I would do I have just weighed out for my next batch with the Gen4 and in to get 3100 grams of base malt I have sieved off 790 grams of flour. Now I know this is not critical with my previous AIO but the Gen4 seems to suffer from sticking mashes if the full throttle is used on the pump as advised.
I will report when I have brewed this to see if it makes much difference

 

[Frisp]

Not to hijack this thread but to show that crush is critical on some AIO's as I said I would do I have just weighed out for my next batch with the Gen4 and in to get 3100 grams of base malt I have sieved off 790 grams of flour. Now I know this is not critical with my previous AIO but the Gen4 seems to suffer from sticking mashes if the full throttle is used on the pump as advised.
I will report when I have brewed this to see if it makes much difference

watching with interest

 

[The Baron]

watching with interest

Hi Frisp I have just posted a thread re milling for the gen4 and milling machine recommendations too.
Lets see if this helps

 

[peterpiper]

Not to hijack this thread but to show that crush is critical on some AIO's as I said I would do I have just weighed out for my next batch with the Gen4 and in to get 3100 grams of base malt I have sieved off 790 grams of flour. Now I know this is not critical with my previous AIO but the Gen4 seems to suffer from sticking mashes if the full throttle is used on the pump as advised.
I will report when I have brewed this to see if it makes much difference

Sounds like a big % loss.
It might be better to keep the flour in the grainbed, by recirculation if necessary.

I often do Heffweizens with 55-60% wheat malt in my BZ Gen4. Wheat, being huskless, has lots of flour.
Used to have stuck mash, but my method now is:
1) dough in with minimal stirring, to just break up lumps without knocking air out of grain (increased buoyancy = less compacted grain bed). No more stirring after this.
2) leave grain bed to rest. no recirc for 15min, while grain & flour hydrates. I do outer recirculation (outside malt pipe) at max rate, with pipe stuck down one lift hole, during rest. This helps maintain bed temperature, and keep free flour circulating (rather than settle).
3) start recirc via grain bed at minimum rate. Increasing rate, till liquid level starts rising, then back it off. Any circulating flour is now filtered out by grain bed.

I also now use a split recirc mod, with 2nd recirc pipe from drain tap, allowing total recirc at max rate at all times.
New pipe, set for max possible % flow via grain bed (controlled by drain tap), while original recirc pipe (valve fully open) does outer recirc (via lift hole).

Hi Frisp I have just posted a thread re milling for the gen4 and milling machine recommendations too.
Lets see if this helps

 

[peterpiper]

The hop spider will not stop break only hop debris.
I let the kettle settle before transfer and depending on your system (AIO) I use the tap then put fine seive between the FV and the tap to try and catch any ****. If you are suffering really bad with break it will soon clog the sieve.
I have got to be honest I used to suffer from this but I have tuned my brewing process over the years and it is hard to put my finger on one thing that improved it(maybe the Protofloc overdose).
I do skim the hot break with a spoon to remove most of it I always use Protofloc and whirlpool at the end then leave the trub to settle for at least 15+ minutes before transfer to the FV.
Using too much Protofloc can cause a soup of floating trub so I only use 1/3rd of a tablet and never a full one in a standard brew.

When is that 15 min from, ... when chilled to fernent temp?

In a range of beer styles, I've never had any floaters, always using a full PF tablet in 23L.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I use half a whirlfloc per 25 litres in the boiler and would use a half still if it was 20 litres.

The brewtools trubinator ( or my home made version) will catch a fair amount of the break, but I don't use any bottom plates in my all in one and so just fit the trubinator after the sparge.

 

[The Baron]

When is that 15 min from, ... when chilled to fernent temp?

In a range of beer styles, I've never had any floaters, always using a full PF tablet in 23L.

The 15 mins is from flameout