Rights and wrongs of the gig economy deliveroo etc

Discussion in 'The Snug' started by simon12, Dec 11, 2019.

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  1. Dec 11, 2019 #1

    simon12

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    Just wondered what you all think of people basically working for an app on a self employed basis and no rights to minimum wage, sick or holiday pay but they can work when they want as hard as they want and get paid based on how much they do. I have never done it and likely never will and don't even know anyone who has. I watched a few you tube videos and heres a very brief summary.
    Deliveroo
    New guy (in London) tries it for a week averages just under £5 an hour mainly low because of off peak times getting no orders for sometimes over an hour, I get the impression if he did another week knowing more where and when to work he would get over £10 an hour easily.
    Experienced guy in Leeds gets £18-20 an hour no problem and even goes to a new area to try it and averages over £16 an hour despite taking nearly an hour off to go home and change bikes
    Amazon delivery
    Same new guy tries it for a week gets about £15 an hour but down to £11 after paying for fuel and a bit to allow for car ware but based on the hours amazon says it should take but he got several 4 hour shifts that took under 2 hours 1 under 1 1/2 hours so for the actual hours he did the pay was over £20 an hour

    From what I can tell deliveroo currently offer the option of getting £7 an hour plus £1 per delivery or getting paid per delivery only at between £2.62 and over £5.50 per delivery.

    So on the plus side
    You can work when you want and as hard as you want and get more for working harder
    Its the system that gives you the biggest cut of what the company gets for your work
    You can take time off whenever you want and work extra shifts whenever you want
    You can get around 3 times more than other unskilled jobs and likely double what a restaurant pays delivery drivers (or alot less)
    You have an option to guarantee at least £7 an hour even if you do nothing except hang around waiting

    On the down side
    You have no job security
    No paid holiday or sick pay
    You could work for hours for bellow minimum wage or even nothing (unless you select the £7 an hour option)
    You can easily get your bike stolen
    You can loose money waiting for food to be cooked
    It will take time working for a low wage until you work out how to get the best from it

    Neutral
    You don't have to do it you can just get a different job if you need the security on an employment contract.

    I could keep typing for ages but its not that interesting I just wondered what you think of this morally and legally, is it a great way for people to get a good share of what there work is worth or an excuse for companies to dodge employment responsibilities and would your opinion change if it was just an app with no company behind it so riders got paid the entire delivery fee?
     
  2. Dec 11, 2019 #2

    Chippy_Tea

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    That sums up my thoughts, how can you plan ahead if you have no job security and as many low paid families are one pay check away from losing their homes to me no sick pay is just wrong.
     
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  3. Dec 11, 2019 #3

    the_quick

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    100% agree with Chippy on that. You work for same company day in day out, this is being an employee but without responsibilities for the employer (sick pay, holiday pay etc). Not fair !
     
  4. Dec 11, 2019 #4

    Leon103

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    Not something I would do unless it was last resort. Clearly there are people out there willing to do it and suits them.

    You could work for other major retailers and still be on minimum wage and zero hour contracts
     
  5. Dec 11, 2019 #5

    ITMA

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    I know several people who work for the gig economy and they love it. I sort of do the same, although its not quite Deliveroo or Uber. I love it. I don't want a company to look after me. I don't want holidays or sick leave, I can arrange that for myself.

    Nobody has job security, although many people have the illusion of security. Those of us in the gig economy are just more aware of the lack of security. The sensible ones amongst us will have plans in place.

    Any road up, a crackdown is coming. Governments can't stand people making their own decisions and being free. I'll guarantee they won't actually listen to anything the workers have to say.

    From the other angle, the app I derive most of my income from currently is American owned and they (the Americans, not the app) are becoming extremely hostile to foreigners coming in and taking "their" money. The paperwork we now have to fill in is horrendous, and that's before HMRC start asking any questions.
     
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  6. Dec 11, 2019 #6

    Clint

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    Thought Uber had to comply regarding holiday pay etc..?
     
  7. Dec 11, 2019 #7

    Chippy_Tea

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    I work for a company that has been around donkeys years and I doubt anything is going to change in the few years left before I retire so as far as I concerned I have job security.
     
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  8. Dec 11, 2019 #8

    Richie_asg1

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    I view it as a job that needs to be done and the app system seems to be working at the moment, but there are a few flaws and the odds seems stacked in the favour of the companies. For example if there are a lot of delivery people or more people are doing it then the average pay will go down, so the more popular it becomes the less it will pay.
    There will also be aggression against the new people as seen as taking existing deliveries from established people.
    Just because it goes quiet in one area does that mean an influx into the next area?

    I can see HMRC wanting more involvement and logging what is earned and by who. Legally a lot of these people can still be classed as unemployed and working under 16 hours a week if they choose to do that. But if they don't declare it then they could be working the system in their favour illegally.

    I don't agree with 0 hours contracts as it is a loophole at the moment and exploits workers, so would rather do this freelance than be booked exclusively by one company to yank your chain if they need you.

    Ultimately I would think if you enjoy doing it they why not.
     
  9. Dec 11, 2019 #9

    simon12

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    I never added my own opinion which is it should be kept an eye on but not regulated unless it becomes truly explotive (ie they half the pay per delivery with 24 hours notice) its a job that fits a niece of people very well and a good alternative for many to a minimum wage ish job. If it became under full employment law the losers would not be big companies but those who work it for the best.
     
  10. Dec 12, 2019 #10

    foxy

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    I think it would be better if all employment was contractual, that is the fairest way, probably will happen one day if jobs become more scarce. The biggest headache is getting rid of employees who do not pull their weight and financially rewarding those who do.
     
  11. Dec 12, 2019 #11

    MyQul

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    I wouldnt want to do it. I'd have to work hard to earn any thing. I dont like working hard. I'm too lazy
     
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  12. Dec 12, 2019 #12

    simon12

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    Just another thought how many minimum wage workers would give up all employment rights for an extra £2-3 pounds an hour.
     
  13. Dec 12, 2019 #13

    johncrobinson

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    I suspect very very few like the so called freedom of choosing hrs
    I also suspect most would prefer money in the bank,regular wage coming in, and food on the familys table.
     
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  14. Dec 12, 2019 #14

    MyQul

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    I'm guessing you're right. It's like the freedom to choose to be poor
     
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  15. Dec 12, 2019 #15

    Richie_asg1

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    Seems to suit students who already have that covered. And anyone who has a bicycle and rides it for recreation anyway.
    Most of the users seem to be lazy students anyway, so they are in the right areas straight away.
     
  16. Dec 12, 2019 #16

    Chippy_Tea

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    We don't have a minimum wage any more it's the living wage and I bet not one of those that set it at just over £8 per hour could live on it


    The national living wage, the statutory national minimum wage for those aged 25 and over, will increase 4.9% from 1 April 2019, from £7.83 to £8.21. The Low Pay Commission (LPC), which recommended the increase, estimated that the increase will benefit around 2.4 million workers
     
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  17. Dec 12, 2019 #17

    jjsh

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    Very true, but then many people on the minimum / living wage don't just live on that either; if you have kids to look after various in work benefits kick in, etc. Not saying it's a bed of roses by any means, but it's a mixed picture.
     
  18. Dec 12, 2019 #18

    St00

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    I'm a tree hugging hippy socialist. I think people deserve being treated fairly and decently. I think that money is a means to an end and the economy should not be used as an indication of how "well off" people are. A lot of the jobs people do now will be replaced by robots in a few decades or so, the system needs to change. Zero hours contracts should be abolished. If you want autonomy over your hours of work, holidays etc. there's always self employment, but at least your rights will be protected.

    I get the benefits in theory, but in practice they're exploitative.
     
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  19. Dec 12, 2019 #19

    MmmBeer

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    In the past I have taken on a number of people on short term, zero hours contracts to fill gaps, often in remote locations. As others have said, some were students, others were unemployed, glad of few weeks of money, one ended up being employed full time. The conditions were clearly explained to every one as they took the role. All had the right to decline, no-one was exploited.

    If anyone disagrees with the way these sorts of companies operate, then don't use them. If enough people were to do so, then they would be forced to change, or go bust.
     
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  20. Dec 12, 2019 #20

    johncrobinson

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    At 63 yrs old its not my world any more.The batton has to be passed on to the young.
    let them make there own mistakes.!!
    Has it not been ever thus.???
    Only now in the autum of my days do i begin to even understand the first steps to my deceased fathers wisdom
     
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