Something sort of Sake (Rice & Raisin Wine) 23.11.08

[BrewStew]

tomorrow i'll be knocking up some Sake care of Percivals recipe as follows:

for 3 gallons:
1.5 kg raisins
2.25 kg long grain rice (i use basmati)
4.5 kg sugar
2 Table-Spoon citric acid (i used one and some lemon juice)
yeast (i used to use CWE multipurpose, this time i used a white wine yeast, nothing special but can't remember what it was)
nutrient (i used marmite first time round and it worked a treat, this time used a bought in nutrient)
water 3 gallons.

stick all the dry stuff in your fermenting bin, apart from the stuff added in small quantities)
boil the water and pour it over everything and make sure the sugar dissolves. when its cool enough add the yeast, nutrient and citric acid.
pop the lid on and stir it every day for 3 weeks. then rack.

I've only got champagne yeast in stock, but see it as no problem because i'll be stirring it every day, so it'll knock any gas out anyway. plus i'll degass it when it's racked to secondary too

question for percival if he gets chance to read this before i do it, is how much marmite? one teaspoon? and can i use 2 table spoons of lemon juice as i dont have any citric acid.

oh and is sake like wine where it's better to use corks?

 

[BrewStew]

just knocked up a starter cos the champagne yeast is a little old (over a year). so if i get no action by tomorrow, i'll have to postpone until i can get hold of some wine yeast.

 

[Kingfisher]

What have you used as a starter, yeast & nutrient + boiled water

 

[percival]

citric acid. i reckon that citric acid powder is way more concentrated than lemon juice. so would recommend using at least twice as much juice. possibly juice from one lemon is equiv to spoon of acid. very much a guess tho. Of course lemon juice will also contain lots of other yummy stuff apart from citric acid so this might compensate for what the lemon juice lacks in citric acid content.

bottling, yes definately go the wine route, nice big bottles and corks.

Marmite; it was about 10 years ago that i used marmite instead of nutrient, so my memory is very fuzzy about this. i think i used about 1 lvl tsp for 3 gallon equivalent. However, i have recently read (i think on this forum, may even have been your post, about getting brews off the sediment as soon as possible) that live yeast feeding on dead yeast taints brews with an unpleasant flavour. As marmite is little more than a product derived from yeast you may want to reconsider. It did work for me tho, but perhaps your taste is a little more discerning than mine. At the time i first brewed this i was a 'everything must be natural' junky. hence the route i took. These days i'm less fussy. So it wasn't done for any improved flavour etc.

From the content of your posts i reckon you are a way more accomplished and experienced brewer than me stew. So keep an eye on it and use whatever tools you have to monitor your brew and make adjustments as you see fit.

The sake i have on the go at the moment is the fastest brew to clear that i have ever done. It was started about 6 weeks ago, and two weeks ago it was totally crystal clear. i'm still amazed by it. Didn't filter it despite berry suggesting to do so.

have fun, if you take the nutrient/acid route it will be a breeze. if you go the marmite/lemon juice route you should still get an excellent product, especially with your experience.

 

[BrewStew]

Kingfisher, for a starter i boiled a cup of sugar in about 1.5 litres of water, put it in a 3L plastic sanitised bottle... cooled to 20'c and sprinkled the yeast then shook it like mad. i'm actually a little worried cos the yeast pack was rock hard and needed me to rub it to free the yeast, which made it split at the side. so methinks that the yeast pack may have not been sealed properly and the air got to the yeast :shock: will know for sure tomorrow if the plastic bottle hasn't expanded, and will have to postpone if so.

Percival, I may have done a fair few beers, but wine brewing i'm still new to. only done one wine kit and the elderberry to date. i'm still not entirely sure what the citric acid is supposed to do! it was my post that you read about diacetyl in beers from leaving them on the yeast too long. do bare in mind though that some styles of beers (i think some of them European) actually promote this though. it's just what i prefer to do so dont take it as gospel by any means i'll give a teaspoon of marmite a go and see if i can taste a butterscotch flavour. if i do, then i know for next time to get the proper stuff :thumb:

i'll take a good amount of hydrometer readings, but that's about as technical as i'll get :ugeek:

with the marmite, and the raisins, does it still come out clear, as in like water clear? or does it have a colour?

thanks for the help percival :thumb:

 

[percival]

the colour of mine is like strong tea, but utterly clear. it can only have come from the raisins as i didnt use marmite this time round.

ta for the info about butterscotch flavours. based on this my guess is that even if it does happen the wine will carry it off just fine. Regarding differences in experience, yours will stand you in excellent stead for wines. I'm a brewer who very much follows recipes and tinkers with them a little (like adding spices to my rosehip brew) or finds the odd alternative when recommendations are not available. I'm a little in awe of some posts here when i read of things like EBU's etc etc. Not because its beyond my comprehension, but because of the care you guys take! I don't even own a hydrometer anymore (have done in the past tho). Recently a mate started a grape wine, from his own vines, and he bought a hydrometer (not upon my advice i should add), i'm very glad he did tho cos i have never tried grape wines and left to my guesses he would have ended up with syrup!

 

[percival]

the purpose of citric acid, as i understand it anyway, is to provide the correct pH for the yeast to happily thrive in. Also its said to lend brilliance to the wine. Perhaps that is why i'm so gobsmacked by the clarity of my brew this time round, i guess that the concentration is significantly up on my first attempts when i only used lemon juice. Having said that there was nothing wrong with the clarity of the wine using lemon juice only.

 

[BrewStew]

if it's the PH that's the reason, i'll get my PH strips out and just keep adding lemon juice till it hits the magic number of 3.0 to 3.5... found this online that you may find a good read Clicky (aside from the fact that it's an ad for a ph meter) thanks for the tip!.... again! :thumb: just proves i know feck all about wine! :lol:

i think the care in beer making probably derives from the fact that when you make such a small change it affects the beer's flavour quite drastically in some cases. take my latest incarnation of TaRd stout. all i did was mash it two degrees higher and added 250grams more grain, and it's a completely different animal from it's original counterpart.

i look at wines the same way as i do kit beers (and this is by no means a disrespect) they're nice and easy to do, you can throw something together in under an hour (unless you're doing elderberry) and it'll still taste great! even as an AG brewer i'm still partial to kits and TC's, and take solace in them when i need a quick fix :thumb: especially for a pi$$ head like me :lol:

 

[percival]

yeah i agree with you about knocking out a quick brew, so no disrespect taken! Sake is great for this, and also because it can be drunk young due to serving it warm.

rosehip and orange wines are not quick brews tho, and grapes certainly aren't! well not in comparison to sake, but still are in comparison to beer. If you bottle beer then again wine comes into its own here too cos its much faster.

i like your reasoning behind brewing wine. and tho its different to mine i can appreciate it. i enjoy using ingredients i can pick for free, or buy cheap. i'm quite happy to wait months before drinking it too because it does improve the flavour oh so noticeably and i do brew for a pleasant drink as well as the anaesthetic effect which by-passes the sound of my better half snoring! i've never tried a wine kit, the cost puts me off, but more than that i enjoy what the commercial brewers knock out and simply can't imagine making anything comparable at a price saving that seems worthwhile to me. My blackberry wine (at last racking) had a luuuurvly flavour tho, very reminiscent of a red grape wine. next year i must get at least 3 gallons on the go, rather than the measly one i managed this year.

 

[BrewStew]

i'm glad it can be drunk young... i've been known to sanitise a pint glass and dip it in the fermenter a few times :lol: but your version of young might be considerably longer than mine! can sake be drunk within a couple of weeks of bottling? :twisted:

agreed on the bottling. bottling my Merlot took no where near as long as expected.

i'm not a dedicated wine drinker. I love a glass with an evening meal, and maybe a few glasses afterwards. but cannot drink wine by itself in any significant quantities unless i'm in a particularly strange mood... or i've got nothing else to drink... then i'll just pour it into a pint glass :rofl:

with me going all River Cottage on my lifestyle, i'm definitely pursuing what i can make with locally foraged stuff, and living just on the edge of the country has it's benefits for such a venture! it'll be elderflower wine next year... maybe even beetroot wine from home grown beetroot :shock:

my one saving grace though with wine is i'm never in such a hurry to drink it, so they do stand a chance at reaching some form of maturation if i can guard it from the mrs :lol:

 

[percival]

lol, i guess we do have differing views on what is young wine. but don't we all.

i never bottle any wine unless its ready to drink. i don't know of any reasoning for homemade wine that says it conditions any better in a bottle than in bulk, in a demijohn. if i run out of demijohns i buy more rather than bottle to free them up. Berry says that you can drink your sake after filtering it (which he says you need to do to clear it, but my experience says it absolutely unnecessary. if you are gonna drink it warm (which i recommend as its a nice change) then glug away when it clears. if you're gonna drink it cold then leaving it for months, as with all wines, will be worthwhile. So there is every chance you could be sipping warm sake on xmas eve. i wouldn't recommend it by the pint glass tho, unless those peculiar moods you describe strike :grin:

i appreciate your thanks by the way, tho it is a pleasure to pass on this recipe. i hope you like it and enjoy the quick and simply nature of the brewing too. are you using basmati rice? or did you go for cheaper rice? just curious is all. i've never used anything but basmati, one of my recipe adaptions.

as for river cottage grrrrrr :evil: i believe that program is the main reason for there being so few elderberries this year, i.e. the elderflower champagne recipe meant that the poor bushes got raided and stripped of all their flowers. hopefully next year i'll find some berry laden trees.

 

[BrewStew]

well in that case i see no reason to not pop open a bottle at Christmas time :thumb:

it took some finding for elderberries round 'ere too, but i was lucky enough to find the perfect tree just out of sight from a main road, with convenient parking infront of a farm gate that was more than enough to fill a fermenter bucket. wish i'd found that first, cos what i was finding to start with were shrivelled or hard to get to. i'll be going back there when the flowers come into season next year :thumb:

i'm really grateful you shared the recipe and i've got tescos own basmati rice on order. i wonder what the driver will say when he delivers several kilos of rice, raisins, sugar and 24 cartons of apple juice tomorrow :lol:

i hope the mrs likes it.. dont think she's ever had sake before. if she does then that's great cos it'll get her off my beer when she's not got wine to drink!! :rofl: if not, then at least i've got another recipe i can knock up to get the wine rack in a more suitable condition and in less time, and it also means a little more choice :thumb:

 

[BrewStew]

looks like the starter has some form of life in it.. there's a froth beginning to form *fingers crossed*

 

[BrewStew]

how sad is this... i'm "cuddling" my starter bottle :lol: i left it in the office overnight, came to it this morning and the office was freezing cold. the bottle had expanded but not alot... gotta wake em up for today's their big day!

 

[BrewStew]

All done... pics to follow.

ermm.... percival... should the OG be 1.110? :shock: :twisted: :lol: i thought it was quite alot of sugar

 

[Wez]

:shock:

:drunk:

 

[BrewStew]

Here come the pics.
Weighed out all the ingredients:

filled my boiler with just over 3 gallons (to allow for loss from boiling and tap) and ran off into the fermenter to the 3 gallon mark. i was about to pour the raisins in while it was filling when i stopped and realised i had to wait until all the water was in to be sure i was at 3 gallons... a few raisins dropped in when i realised but nothing to sweat about.

looks like murky tea

and lots of rice and raisins to keep stirring... but because the water was boiling hot, my plastic spoon was rendered useless :lol:

will leave it to cool overnight and pitch the starter first thing in the morning :thumb:

reading taken at 50'c

1.110 *shakes head* i reckon this might come out quite sweet... there's no way all that will ferment out before the yeast kills itself. but will be interesting to find out! :drunk:

 

[BrewStew]

hmmm 75% apparent attenuation would make this 11.2%ABV with an FG of 1.025 according to BeerSmith.

that doesn't seem correct to me... i thought champagne yeast was capable of pushing the 15%+ mark :wha:

ahhh but wait... caster sugar is 100% fermentable ... i've no idea about rice or raisins... so would you say that 90% attenuation is more realistic?

an FG of 1.010 would be 90% Apparent, 72.3% Real attenuation.. but with an ABV of 13.2%... which still seems low for a sake/wine :wha:

feckit i'll just wait and see and hope it doesn't come out too sweet *fingers crossed*

 

[percival]

i have no idea what the OG should be stew. but the yeast only has the sugar from the raisins and what you add yourself to munch. The sugars in the rice are not used by the yeast. In real sake a fungus is used to break down the rice sugars. Also the raisins are not chopped or mashed so my guess is that a lot of their sugars remain unavailable to the yeast too.

berry says this should make a medium wine. Your ABV calculation puts it around what you might expect for a wine.

 

[BrewStew]

thanks Percival :thumb:

i still think it should be a goodun' no matter what it's ABV :drink: