Using CO2 in bottling from a bucket fermenter

[foxy]

Crikey, your link was a hard read .

Some interesting stuff there, though, and I liked that one of the referenced articles was written by someone called Saison.

What I picked up was :-

Re-innoculating during bottling is the preferred method if you are going to bottle condition. They don't talk about just sticking in more fermentables. Possibly because they just take it as read that it isn't the most effective. Could also be because they are being paid to develop a superior industrial/commercial yeast .

It is most effective with yeast starter in a sucrose medium (not dry and not in wort although they acknowledge it
is common to add yeast from the next batch's krausen).

That re-innoculating even without adding more fermentables improves beer stability. Very interesting that.

The bit about using a sucrose based starter makes me think that instead of making a sugar solution and using that to bottle, it would be interesting to prepare the solution in advance and put some yeast in it so that it 'hits the ground running' when you add it to the bottle. Not sure how long 'in advance' would be, day before ? Or how much yeast to add

Good article.

That is the question how much yeast to add? For us homebrewers, it is carry on as normal. We aren't shipping over the globe or even the country as long as it is kept below 20C it can last until we finish the batch quite easily.
As for George Fix I have the same book and he is firmly in the camp that no oxygen is taken up by the yeast after bottling.

 

[Twostage]

That is the question how much yeast to add? For us homebrewers, it is carry on as normal. We aren't shipping over the globe or even the country as long as it is kept below 20C it can last until we finish the batch quite easily.
As for George Fix I have the same book and he is firmly in the camp that no oxygen is taken up by the yeast after bottling.

Saves me reading the Fix book. .

I was thinking more about the speedy cleanup and flavour stabilisation bits of the article. I got the impression that the beer tasted better with than without. I was also thinking carbonation would be quicker.

 

[foxy]

Saves me reading the Fix book. .

I was thinking more about the speedy cleanup and flavour stabilisation bits of the article. I got the impression that the beer tasted better with than without. I was also thinking carbonation would be quicker.

What interested me is the old beer new yeast. Can fresh yeast resurrect a stale beer? It sounds feasible. It brought to mind Guinness using stale beer in the 30's. I have done it similar to what Guinness was thought to have done. On my first attempt I just left a litre of wort exposed to the atmosphere next day it was fermenting away. It smelled absolutely rank. When it had finished I brought it up to 80C and added it to my Guinness clone. After fermentation it was the best Guinness FE Stout I have made.
Entered it in a comp as a blended sour and it came second.

 

[MashBag]

Good article. Thank you.

It has a couple of collisions with enology teaching.

It also begs the question if saving some inoculated wort day 2 to inoculate at bottling day 7 might be better than adding sucrose.

 

[MashBag]

Can fresh yeast resurrect a stale beer?

Yes. Done it.

 

[Twostage]

What interested me is the old beer new yeast. Can fresh yeast resurrect a stale beer? It sounds feasible. It brought to mind Guinness using stale beer in the 30's. I have done it similar to what Guinness was thought to have done. On my first attempt I just left a litre of wort exposed to the atmosphere next day it was fermenting away. It smelled absolutely rank. When it had finished I brought it up to 80C and added it to my Guinness clone. After fermentation it was the best Guinness FE Stout I have made.
Entered it in a comp as a blended sour and it came second.

Nice one .

Yes, that struck me too. (Spotted @MashBag posts further down) The new yeast must like to eat all the things we don't.

 

[MashBag]

Yeast in general clear up all sorts of things. And (some strains) even kill other yeast.

 

[foxy]

Nice one .

Yes, that struck me too. (Spotted @MashBag posts further down) The new yeast must like to eat all the things we don't.

I am inspired now, we have a stout extravaganza on the comp calendar. I have a few litres of kettle dregs which I use for starters, I am going to use 4 litres of those to ferment a sour and add it to a Guinness clone. I was going to use Lactic acid but it feels like cheating.

 

[Agentgonzo]

It also begs the question if saving some inoculated wort day 2 to inoculate at bottling day 7 might be better than adding sucrose

How would you go about saving it? If left alone it'll just ferment like the rest of the batch in the main fermenter. I suppose you could put it in the fridge to slow down fermentation, but that may have adverse effects on the yeast.

It'd be tricky to get the dosage right too I expect.

I suspect that at the commercial level it gives you better consistency of the final product, but it's not worth the effort at the homebrew level where a known quantity of priming sugar is sufficient. It could be interesting to try though.

 

[Agentgonzo]

The bit about using a sucrose based starter makes me think that instead of making a sugar solution and using that to bottle, it would be interesting to prepare the solution in advance and put some yeast in it so that it 'hits the ground running' when you add it to the bottle

An interesting idea. The yeast 'hitting the ground running' will definitely be better than it having to wake up (also 'healthier') and why krausening works at the commercial level (because you always have fresh and actively fermenting yeast to hand).

It could risk you having too much yeast in the bottle and thus too much sediment though

 

[Caramel Ox]

I generally think that more people move to kegging and that limits the development of advanced bottling techniques.

Commercial bottle conditioned beers are controlled to have very little yeast in as very little is actually needed to carbonate. This is why they remove all yeast then redose. The simplest way to achieve this at home may be to lager at 2 degrees for a week before bottling. Then adjust the timing to give the desired yeast amount?

 

[MashBag]

An interesting idea. The yeast 'hitting the ground running' will definitely be better than it having to wake up (also 'healthier') and why krausening works at the commercial level (because you always have fresh and actively fermenting yeast to hand).

It could risk you having too much yeast in the bottle and thus too much sediment though

That's pretty much what I have found bottling @20°c on day 7. The yeast is roaring to go and is finished and clear day 9.

 

[MashBag]

How would you go about saving it?

Freeze it. Thaw and use a syringe to dose. Thinking 20ml per bottle.

Tbh I think this is long practised German method for Reinheitsgebot

 

[MashBag]

Actually that's wrong. A Reinheitsgebot method would be for the fermentables not the yeast as well.

 

[Twostage]

I am inspired now, we have a stout extravaganza on the comp calendar. I have a few litres of kettle dregs which I use for starters, I am going to use 4 litres of those to ferment a sour and add it to a Guinness clone. I was going to use Lactic acid but it feels like cheating.

View attachment 95875

I like the kettle dregs thing. I suppose that method (I.e. sticking it in a bottle in the fridge) would work for saving some of the yeast at the bottom of the FV to re-pitch. I keep thinking it's a waste to just tip it all out.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Freeze it.

Doesn't that kill the yeast?

 

[MashBag]

Doesn't that kill the yeast?

Nope they survived the last ice-age, couple of days in my freezer should be OK.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Nope they survived the last ice-age, couple of days in my freezer should be OK.

Interesting. I've always heard that freezing them ruptures the cell walls and kills them.

I wonder why people resort to freezing them in glycol then

 

[MashBag]

Hold on to your lugnuts.

For a long time I used to fill 250ml 'pop' bottles from the top of a live ferment and freeze them. For months. Then remove the lid and drop them in, after mash had cooled (with ice packs). Fishing the bottle out next day. Don't recall it ever failing.

 

[MashBag]

I wonder why people resort to freezing them in glycol then

I have always put it down to the human ability to make it hard

There is a place for it I am sure, but that does not exclude homebrewers from popping some in with the fish fingers.