(was) Doppelbock (now) Czech Dark Lager with substitutions - thoughts please.

[UKSkydiver]

Hi All
I like maltier brews, and wanted to try and lager type style, so have decided on a bock of some description.

Having gone through the GH Bible and Morton's Brew, I have plumped for GH Doppelbock, but I don't quite have all the ingredients.

I've subbed and changed some of the quantities based on what I have (ignore the kg amounts as one is a full 23 litre and mine is my 10 litre batch - instead use the percentages).

Effectively I've added more Pils and MO and reduced the Munich. I appreciate I am missing the equivalent caramel malts, but hey.

ABV, SG, IBUs and EBCs all end up about the same

Do you have any thoughts or suggestions (other than buy the right kit )

Thanks for your time reading this far.

Doppelbock (Greg Hughes)	Frankenbock (with subs)
Malts (7.53 kg) 4.27 kg (56.7%) — Munich — Grain — 13.1 EBC 2.85 kg (37.9%) — Pilsner Malt — Grain — 3.3 EBC 290 g (3.9%) — Caramunich II — Grain — 124 EBC 120 g (1.6%) — Carafa Special II — Grain — 820 EBC Hops (40 g) 20 g (15 IBU) — Perle 8% — Boil — 60 min 20 g (6 IBU) — Tettnang 4.5% — Boil — 30 min	Malts (3.485 kg) 1.7 kg (48.8%) — EuroPils — Grain — 3.5 EBC 1 kg (28.7%) — Munich — Grain — 13.1 EBC 600 g (17.2%) — Maris Otter Pale Malt, — Grain — 4 EBC 131 g (3.8%) — Brown Malt — Grain — 170 EBC 54 g (1.6%) — Chocolate Malt — Grain — 1050 EBC Hops (20 g) 7 g (15 IBU) — Northern Brewer 9.5% — Boil — 60 min 13 g (6 IBU) — Hersbrucker 2.75% — Boil — 30 min

 

[strange-steve]

I'm sure that'll make a fine dark lager of some sort but probably not a doppelbock. You really need a big portion of Munich malt to get the lovely toasty, bready backbone of the style which MO doesn't have, plus the caramunich enhances the maltiness, whereas brown malt and chocolate malt give a drier, roastier quality that isn't really appropriate. Your recipe looks probably more like a schwartzbier than a bock I'd say.

 

[UKSkydiver]

Seems like you can change an ingredient (or two) and all of a sudden it's a completely different style.

As ever, I appreciate your input, (goes to google: schwartzbier)

(. . . and also finds that) . . . . it doesn't look that far off a Czech Cerne Pivo

. . . which is a style I also wanted to brew - so happy days.

 

[UKSkydiver]

I thinking what I have in stock lends itself more to a Czech dark lager

Czech Cerne Pivo

Original Gravity: 1058 Final Gravity: 1015 IBU (Tinseth): 32 Color: 60.5 EBC ABV: 5.6% Mash Temperature — 65 °C — 60 min Malts (3.05 kg) 1.7 kg (55.7%) — EuroPils — Grain — 3.5 EBC 1 kg (32.8%) — Munich — Grain — 13.1 EBC 150 g (4.9%) — Special B — Grain — 290 EBC 120 g (3.9%) — Chocolate Malt — Grain — 1050 EBC 50 g (1.6%) — Melanoidin — Grain — 50 EBC 30 g (1%) — Black Malt — Grain — 1035 EBC Hops (32 g) 10 g (22 IBU) — Northern Brewer 9.5% — Boil — 60 min 22 g (10 IBU) — Hersbrucker 2.7% — Boil — 30 min

One further question please . . .
Water profile - should I be looking at something like a Czech Pils or a German Dark Lager? Or something else?

 

[alsch890]

The only thing I'd say is that would be quite strong for a české černé pivo. That's around 14° plato and the standard Czech dark lager tends to be around 12°,having said that there are plenty of stronger ones. I'd also consider using Saaz for the late hop addition.

I did a černé last year, used saflager s-23 i think. But it was too roasty. I'll do another in the new year and was going to look into only a partial mash of the dark malts, in effort to get the colour with all the roast?

 

[UKSkydiver]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

Yes, it's a bit higher SG than expected, I could reduce the grain, but my efficiency may not be as good so it may end up about 5% anyway.

I can't really discern the difference between hops and it's what I have in stock. There was some substitution chart on line somewhere that suggested hersbrucker, I know its not ideal.

Do you have a view on water profile?

 

[matt76]

A couple of suggestions:

Have a look on beer and brewing.com for Josh Weikert's series of "Make your best..." - have a look at Czech Dark, Czech Amber, Schwarzbier, Dark Lager, Munich Dunkel...

(I made the Munich Dunkel - had one last night, cracking! Czech Amber also superb. Czech Dark planned soon, probably next month)

I think you're somewhere in the ballpark for some sort of dark lager even if you're not making a specific style - you can bill it as a "hybrid"! And in any case you can make a tasty beer which is what it's really all about.

I think maybe the major difference between all these styles is the amount of - and balance between - roast, malt, sweetness etc.

Hops - I think the essential point is you want to go old world/noble, not Citra, Amarillo or Mosaic for example! I used Northdown in my Munich Dunkel - it's not traditional but so what?

Water - You're unlikely to nail a Pilsen or Munich profile so don't sweat it. My water is even harder then yours but seems too work well for dark beers. For these styles (i.e. malty rather than hoppy) I would add CaCl.

I think you want to err towards a slightly higher pH for darker beers, maybe 5.6-5.8. And since dark malt is more acidic you may also not need so much acid to hit your mash pH.

(Though you may want to double check my water profile reasoning with a grown up!)

 

[UKSkydiver]

A couple of suggestions:

Have a look on beer and brewing.com for Josh Weikert's series of "Make your best..." - have a look at Czech Dark, Czech Amber, Schwarzbier, Dark Lager, Munich Dunkel...

(I made the Munich Dunkel - had one last night, cracking! Czech Amber also superb. Czech Dark planned soon, probably next month)

I think you're somewhere in the ballpark for some sort of dark lager even if you're not making a specific style - you can bill it as a "hybrid"! And in any case you can make a tasty beer which is what it's really all about.

I think maybe the major difference between all these styles is the amount of - and balance between - roast, malt, sweetness etc.

Hops - I think the essential point is you want to go old world/noble, not Citra, Amarillo or Mosaic for example! I used Northdown in my Munich Dunkel - it's not traditional but so what?

Water - You're unlikely to nail a Pilsen or Munich profile so don't sweat it. My water is even harder then yours but seems too work well for dark beers. For these styles (i.e. malty rather than hoppy) I would add CaCl.

I think you want to err towards a slightly higher pH for darker beers, maybe 5.6-5.8. And since dark malt is more acidic you may also not need so much acid to hit your mash pH.

(Though you may want to double check my water profile reasoning with a grown up!)

Hey Matt
After one of your previous posts suggested Josh Weikert’s MYB series, this recipe is actually based on his Czech Dark Lager, so thanks for the tip. I always take a look at his view of a brew to make sure I’m in the right postcode at least.
I appreciate your thoughts on water; maybe a tad of CRS to help it on its way and let the dark malts do the rest. I hadn’t looked at it that way, but makes sense.

As you say, it should still make a reasonable brew if not entirely to the style.
As ever, I appreciate your time, cheers.