Your views on how the Tories have handled Coronavirus.

[foxy]

I think its the way they are counted may have a lot to do with difference in numbers, plus the Germans have tested far more people.
As for the conservatives being held to blame, I never heard the labour party lobbying for a contingency plan against any pandemic in the UK or here.
The pandemic has happened, no use crying over spilled milk. So the question now should be, How will the Tories handle the aftermath of the pandemic.

 

[cushyno]

I think its the way they are counted may have a lot to do with difference in numbers, plus the Germans have tested far more people.
As for the conservatives being held to blame, I never heard the labour party lobbying for a contingency plan against any pandemic in the UK or here.
The pandemic has happened, no use crying over spilled milk. So the question now should be, How will the Tories handle the aftermath of the pandemic.

No, it's not the aftermath. Whatever party that is in charge should do their damnedest to ensure the safety of the people. Labour aren't in power, Tories are. They haven't done enough.

 

[foxy]

No, it's not the aftermath. Whatever party that is in charge should do their damnedest to ensure the safety of the people. Labour aren't in power, Tories are. They haven't done enough.

It is the aftermath which is the forthcoming problem now, we are already in the middle of the pandemic, lessons have been learned for every country on how to tackle any future pandemics. The talk here now is the lockdown may last until a vaccine is available.
Can you tell me, 'what the enough is they haven't done' along with the rest of the world?

 

[cushyno]

It is the aftermath which is the forthcoming problem now, we are already in the middle of the pandemic, lessons have been learned for every country on how to tackle any future pandemics. The talk here now is the lockdown may last until a vaccine is available.
Can you tell me, 'what the enough is they haven't done' along with the rest of the world?

Referring to my previous post, over the last 10 years the government have reduced funding to the NHS, thereby reducing capacity to respond to any out of the ordinary event. I have family members and friends who work for the NHS and they have been at breaking point for the last two or three years dealing with flu over each winter. I'll say that again. Breaking point, just dealing with flu, which has some degree of predictability.
Going into this crisis, government were still woefully underfunding NHS, claiming money wasn't there. Of course it was, they just choose not to spend it on NHS. When it became apparent that NHS would not be dealing with predictable levels of flu, but something above and beyond, it's taken weeks, the three weeks we were behind Italy, to start advising and doing the right thing. They were not bold enough to lead effectively, to demand that everyone stays at home. Early march the government were sitting on the fence. Why didn't they order and buy enough supplies as soon as they could to test, to protect, to ensure the safety of the NHS and the people of Britain? Not good enough.

 

[simon12]

NHS spending has gone up every year in the last decade.

 

[foxy]

Referring to my previous post, over the last 10 years the government have reduced funding to the NHS, thereby reducing capacity to respond to any out of the ordinary event. I have family members and friends who work for the NHS and they have been at breaking point for the last two or three years dealing with flu over each winter. I'll say that again. Breaking point, just dealing with flu, which has some degree of predictability.
Going into this crisis, government were still woefully underfunding NHS, claiming money wasn't there. Of course it was, they just choose not to spend it on NHS. When it became apparent that NHS would not be dealing with predictable levels of flu, but something above and beyond, it's taken weeks, the the weeks we were behind Italy, to stay advising and doing the right thing. They were not bold enough to lead effectively, to demand that everyone stays at home. Early march the government were sitting on the fence. Why didn't they order and buy enough supplies as soon as they could to test, to protect, to ensure the safety of the NHS and the people of Britain? Not good enough.

Where could they get the supplies? As soon as it started most countries put a ban on export of medical equipment. The money wasn't there at all, the money being spent now has been borrowed. Blaming the Tories when there isn't a comparison to draw on is hardly fair, had labour been in power the blame game would still be going on.
As I said the worst is yet to come, high unemployment, failed businesses, unpaid rent and mortgage this is what the government is going to have to deal with along with the human tragedies that go with it.

 

[cushyno]

Where could they get the supplies? As soon as it started most countries put a ban on export of medical equipment. The money wasn't there at all, the money being spent now has been borrowed. Blaming the Tories when there isn't a comparison to draw on is hardly fair, had labour been in power the blame game would still be going on.
As I said the worst is yet to come, high unemployment, failed businesses, unpaid rent and mortgage this is what the government is going to have to deal with along with the human tragedies that go with it.

So why are some countries better at testing, tracking spread of the virus, being quick to act, than others? It's because some got off their arses on day one and realised the consequences and valued their citizens (Germany, South Korea?). Others procrastinated, navel gazed and thought about the political impact. If Labour were in power and made a shambles of this I'd be complaining about that too. However, Conservatives are in power, have been for a long time, so can't blame anyone else for the state they've left the NHS in. Therefore I vent my frustration at the government of the day. Governments can always do more if they think of the people more and themselves less.

 

[samale]

In fairness they had plenty of warning it was coming

 

[foxy]

So why are some countries better at testing, tracking spread of the virus, being quick to act, than others? It's because some got off their arses on day one and realised the consequences and valued their citizens (Germany, South Korea?). Others procrastinated, navel gazed and thought about the political impact. If Labour were in power and made a shambles of this I'd be complaining about that too. However, Conservatives are in power, have been for a long time, so can't blame anyone else for the state they've left the NHS in. Therefore I vent my frustration at the government of the day. Governments can always do more if they think of the people more and themselves less.

Korea has always been prepared, there is the argument that Germany counting system is questionable among the elderly. The NHS is always going to be behind, hasn't Italy got an excellent national health system, but they are in the same boat.
Everyone knows the world wasn't prepared for this pandemic, its here its happened spending energy attaching blame is pointless, even if it were SARS or MERS it would have been the same how long have they been in existence and still there is no vaccine for them.
British debt is 80% of GDP before this new wave of borrowing for the pandemic, a country cannot just keep printing and borrowing money to cover it, thats how the socialists governments work. Australia was $50,000 million in the black in when the Howard government left office after the Rudd Gillard government left office we were $30 billion in debt. Anyone can borrow money and let the kids grand kids and great grand kids pay it back,
to easy.

 

[An Ankoù]

Ready or not we're well into it now and our front line medics are still not protected. PPE isn't rocket science. Protective gowns and masks don't have to made of high spec disposable materials, they can be run up on a sewing machine in clothing factories or by anyone who's got a sewing machine for that matter. If some staff are wearing bin liners or kitchen aprons then launderable gowns and masks would be much, much, much better, even if not perfect. Then we really would be pulling together.
So where does this long awaited PPE come from? Approved suppliers? With some crony mate of some Tory procurement agency taking a nice cut?
When are these Dyson ventilators coming, then? I'd like to see how the costing and payment chain works for that one.

 

[Session]

NHS spending has gone up every year in the last decade.

Whilst this is technically true, it is an overly simplistic and somewhat misleading viewpoint.

Your statement implies that the conservative government has increased spending over and above the average that was already being spent on the NHS. A study by the Kings Fund published 13.03.20 however demonstrated that the amount spent on the NHS over the last decade by the conservatives - whilst technically an increase - is well under half (actually around 60% less) of the average of the typical year on year increase that is necessary to be spent on the NHS since it’s inception to allow it to keep up with the increase in demand for services. Note this ‘increase’ in spending is not there to necessarily provide new services or improve current services, but to allow the NHS to keep up with a steadily increasing demand and complexity of caseload due to an increasingly ageing population with multiple comorbidities and an increased demand for services. This reduction in funding by the conservatives (whilst still expecting increased productivity and workload for staff working in the NHS) has resulted in the closure of many GP surgeries up and down the country, cuts to services, clinician burnout and increased waiting times.

“Though funding for the Department of Health and Social Care continues to grow, the rate of growth slowed during the period of austerity that followed the 2008 economic crash. Budgets rose by 1.4 per cent each year on average (adjusting for inflation) in the 10 years between 2009/10 to 2018/19, compared to the 3.7 per cent average rises since the NHS was established.”

They went on to say:

“While the new NHS funding deal will ease current pressures, it is not enough to both restore performance against key waiting times standards and deliver widespread changes to services to deliver better care.”

Full report available here:
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

 

[foxy]

Ready or not we're well into it now and our front line medics are still not protected. PPE isn't rocket science. Protective gowns and masks don't have to made of high spec disposable materials, they can be run up on a sewing machine in clothing factories or by anyone who's got a sewing machine for that matter. If some staff are wearing bin liners or kitchen aprons then launderable gowns and masks would be much, much, much better, even if not perfect. Then we really would be pulling together.
So where does this long awaited PPE come from? Approved suppliers? With some crony mate of some Tory procurement agency taking a nice cut?
When are these Dyson ventilators coming, then? I'd like to see how the costing and payment chain works for that one.

First off where does the PPE come from mainly China, until it comes to a situation like this, one would either have to be mad or both to compete head to head with China. So OK let China go ahead and provide the world with masks and protective gowns, concentrate on another business. A pandemic breaks out the world wants PPE, can China supply the worlds need, no, OK we will make our own, where does the raw material come from, China who are flat out using up the raw materials trying to help the world with the shortcomings.
America has a stockpile of PPE for a pandemic whether it be flu or otherwise, including a stockpile of ventilators, they did want more and ordered more before the pandemic broke out as yet none have been delivered. USA has been caught on the back foot as well as the rest of the world despite their stockpile of ventilators and PPE, this has been built up since Bush and Obama but it is not what the world or USA were expecting.
We have one small factory in Australia making face masks, the government has got involved as has the army to produce more masks.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-27/inside-australias-only-medical-mask-factory/12093864I think instead of whinging (which the to and from's are world champions) get behind the government, do as the government suggests just to slow the virus down, there is not going to be a quick fix so suck it up. Stop the blame game.

 

[An Ankoù]

I think instead of whinging (which the to and from's are world champions) get behind the government, do as the government suggests just to slow the virus down, there is not going to be a quick fix so suck it up. Stop the blame game.

You sound like one of the very guys I was referring to in my earlier post and it hasn't gone unnoticed that you consistently promote economic concerns over human lives. We have the like over here, too, regrettably.
Now as far as supply chains and materials are concerned, there's a wealth of both in all European countries and porbably in yours too. Here, if people were given some patterns there'd be a load of good-hearted people knocking out launderable (not top spec, but better than bin bags) PPE until the proper stuff can be made available. But is there the will? On the contrary- when medical front-liners turn up in makeshift PPE or stuff they've bought from a hardware store, they're told to remove them and go into the front line without any protection at all. And so some of them die who should not have died. And it's the managers- people who sound not unlike yourself- who're telling them to do this. Let's be clear. This is a dysfunctional, incompetent and (at the moment) headless government, which is completely out of it's depth. Probably not much worse than yours, but that's no reason to cut them slack. Here, we will pull together if good folk see an opportunity to do so- you can see that when people see an opportunity to help restock food banks and deliver stuff to people who can't reach them. The economics of this situation is that the more weak and elderly who're conveniently "cleared out" by this virus then there'll be billions saved in pensions and geriatric and long-term health care provision in the future. Is that what you're advocating? Is that what you want us to "suck up", Mr Economist? Australia may be in hock to China, but here we're a bit more resourceful.

And our beer's better, too.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Well said AA I'm in total agreement.

 

[foxy]

I haven't seen many pulling together on this forum, the blame game is the state of play here. The economic fall out is going to surpass the virus maybe the left wing are happy to borrow money and leave it to their children and grand children to pay back. What about those with a mortgage and those in rental properties who are going to be out of a job? Does that not matter? The focus should be getting the economy back together, which is not going to be fixed overnight.
The trouble with the elderly is the attitude, I'm all right Jack stuff you, which is one of your generation. It is those coming up who has to face a bleak economy and debt.
There may be a wealth of material for making PPE in European countries but they are keeping it for themselves. Germany denied exports as soon as the crisis arose.
The elderly and weak were always going to be the target of this virus that's what a virus does it takes out the vulnerable, not about convenience.

 

[An Ankoù]

I haven't seen many pulling together on this forum, the blame game is the state of play here. The economic fall out is going to surpass the virus maybe the left wing are happy to borrow money and leave it to their children and grand children to pay back. What about those with a mortgage and those in rental properties who are going to be out of a job? Does that not matter? The focus should be getting the economy back together, which is not going to be fixed overnight.
The trouble with the elderly is the attitude, I'm all right Jack stuff you, which is one of your generation. It is those coming up who has to face a bleak economy and debt.
There may be a wealth of material for making PPE in European countries but they are keeping it for themselves. Germany denied exports as soon as the crisis arose.
The elderly and weak were always going to be the target of this virus that's what a virus does it takes out the vulnerable, not about convenience.

You made your position clear in earlier posts, Foxy, no to to labour the point. But you misunderstand our approach to government. Unlike China, we consider that governments serve the people, not vice versa, and we have the right and duty to hold them to account. If we don't like the way they're doing things then we say so. Under enough pressure, then, a government will look beyong it's vested interests ( and all parties have them) and do it's job of serving the people. In short, it is proper to criticise the government and its party. You mistake this for whingeing and not pulling together.
I make the comparison with China, because you have already implied that we should be totally dependent on them and, I think, the imagery of your avatar rather tells us where your affinities lie.

First off where does the PPE come from mainly China, until it comes to a situation like this, one would either have to be mad or both to compete head to head with China.

etc, etc.

Our beer's better than China's beer, too, and so is Australia's.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Can i just say old people do not deserve to die in this situation they do not have the im all right jack stuff you attitude, they are ordinary decent folk like most of us well almost, The older generation who could not go and fight in the wars kept there countrys going and not just here they are doing there bit now retired doctors and nurses pensioners helping food banks for people less fortunate than them selfs, all this knocking and economic ***** should be on the back burner until this is over, right i will shut up now

 

[cushyno]

If I were a foot soldier on the field of battle, my flank of the battlefield coming under heavy attack with risk to life and limb, I'd be pretty unhappy to see the generals ordering a blacksmith to beat swords into ploughshares and telling the rest of the army to sit around and wait until it was all over.

It's true that generals need to consider the ongoing needs of war even in the heat of battle, i.e. knowing when to retreat, when to change tactics. But you don't leave your front line to fight on in vain while thinking of next year's harvest.

 

[foxy]

You made your position clear in earlier posts, Foxy, no to to labour the point. But you misunderstand our approach to government. Unlike China, we consider that governments serve the people, not vice versa, and we have the right and duty to hold them to account. If we don't like the way they're doing things then we say so. Under enough pressure, then, a government will look beyong it's vested interests ( and all parties have them) and do it's job of serving the people. In short, it is proper to criticise the government and its party. You mistake this for whingeing and not pulling together.
I make the comparison with China, because you have already implied that we should be totally dependent on them and, I think, the imagery of your avatar rather tells us where your affinities lie.

etc, etc.

I beer's better that China's beer, too, and so is Australia's.

The government was voted in by the citizens of the UK it seems the only ones complaining are the ones who didn't vote for them. I would say the dependency on China runs throughout the world. At the moment it is their turn in the driving seat, China has more strikes than any other country so before long their reign will come to an end. India will more than likely be in the driving seat in the not to distant future. My avatar is from Vietnam not China.
I don't mistake, not pulling together, from everything that I have seen on this forum from those who have taken a negative approach are those who have an axe to grind with the conservative party.

Can i just say old people do not deserve to die in this situation they do not have the im all right jack stuff you attitude, they are ordinary decent folk like most of us well almost, The older generation who could not go and fight in the wars kept there countrys going and not just here they are doing there bit now retired doctors and nurses pensioners helping food banks for people less fortunate than them selfs, all this knocking and economic ***** should be on the back burner until this is over, right i will shut up now

Not everyone deserves to die, but like it or not that is all of our destinies, there is no escaping death. As I have said before that is the only certainty in life is you are going to die, but in reality if you have offspring's then you will never die.
I didn't say everyone has an, I'm all right jack attitude, just those who think it' all right borrowing money for others to pay back. The knocking is coming from those who don't like the Tory party, the economic fall out is yet to come.

If I were a foot soldier on the field of battle, my flank of the battlefield coming under heavy attack with risk to life and limb, I'd be pretty unhappy to see the generals ordering a blacksmith to beat swords into ploughshares and telling the rest of the army to sit around and wait until it was all over.

It's true that generals need to consider the ongoing needs of war even in the heat of battle, i.e. knowing when to retreat, when to change tactics. But you don't leave your front line to fight on in vain while thinking of next year's harvest.

I was in the ADF in Operation Slipper in Afghanistan, not one complaint did I hear from any of my comrades against George Bush, even though it was in everyone's mind we shouldn't have been there. We went in did our duty and not once did I hear a word said against the reason we were there.

 

[Druncan]

What I cannot understand is the difference between the reality of ICU staff doing back to back shifts while *nobheads parade around parks, or equally those who fook orf to their second homes and put more risk on small communities. I vote for a total police state lock down with fines and public shaming. The govt needs to get tough and do everything it can to reduce the current or future pressure on our NHS by whatever means it can and fecking soon.