Veganuary.

MyQul said:

B12 comes from microbes in the soil,

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Wow, I did not know that, but you are correct. The Vegan Society recommends a supplement containing vitamin B12, iodine, vitamin D and selenium. This is in recognition of the fact that a pure vegan diet is lacking in these.

You'll get selenium in Brazil nuts.

I really do respect people who go Vegan for genuine ethical reasons, but it's incredibly difficult to live in an industrialised country and live your life ethically. We all benefit from exploitation one way or another.

kelper said:

Wow, I did not know that, but you are correct. The Vegan Society recommends a supplement containing vitamin B12, iodine, vitamin D and selenium. This is in recognition of the fact that a pure vegan diet is lacking in these.

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One thing that amuses me is one argument against veganism is that they'll dont get enough nutrients. I'd suggest most meat eaters (especially in the 'obesity crisis' hit UK) are far more nutrient deficient then any vegan. Simply because people in the UK dont eat enough fruit and veg. The governtments recommendations are 5 per day (a very conservative recommendation because they thought any more and people would struggle) and many, many people still dont even manage that

It does make you wonder...take the manic fools in the supermarket the week before Christmas. Buying Turkey and veg like it's going out of fashion. For some that's probably the only " meat and two veg" meal they can be bothered to cook all year...

It seems the Mediterranean diet might have more health benefits than a vegan one. Personally, I try to eat a varied diet with little or no processed food, apart from essentials like beer, gin and whisky. And wine.

I eat modest amounts of meat and fish, and try to include sensible amounts of fruit and veg in a varied diet. We make a reasonable effort, without being ott, to ensure any meat we buy has been sourced from 'responsible' sources and the animal involved has had a life. However I have no real interest in what other people choose as far as their diet is concerned whether it be vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian or whatever, that's entirely their concern. All I ask is that if people choose to eat differently from me their views do not affect my choices, like mine don't affect theirs, and they should respect my choice like I respect theirs. I assume most people feel that way.

terrym said:

All I ask is that if people choose to eat differently from me their views do not affect my choices, like mine don't affect theirs, and they should respect my choice like I respect theirs. I assume most people feel that way.

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I agree, but it's good to have these discussions. My wife is a recovering vegan and is getting flack from one vegan friend!

Had a vegetarian mate stay over for a couple of weeks over the summer. As that made just three of us, it was a lot easier to go veggie for the fortnight. Not a problem, some great and untried recipes from the Indian cookbook, cauliflower cheese to die for, amazing pizzas, if I do say so myself. Didn't miss meat at all, in fact put on weight due to the bread and cheese. I get vegetarianism, although I've no immediate plans to change permanently. I don't really get veganism- it seems a bit obsessive, but à chacun, son gout, Booboo as Yogi Bear used to say in the French version. It seems to me all species are meant to live together taking what they need from nature and from each other, whether it be meat, fish, fruit or veg. What we do try to avoid is factory raised chickens and intensively reared pork and cattle, although it's hard to be sure that even free-range beasties have been treated with due respect. There is a price difference and 25-35 years ago, I couldn't have afforded to feed my family on free range stuff. It's a bit cheaper now, I think. We don't eat veal and can't help feeling disgust when we venture darn sarf and see that the entire economy of large regions is founded on paté de fois gras. that really is disgusting
and is not simply a question of taste, but a genuine ethical one. (In my unerring opinion, of course. Don't want to be sanctimonious about this.)

Very well put Terry, the sooner all these well heeled policemen who know what's best for everybody including the amount this food they advocate cost's bugger off the world will be a better place, take me I love meat I buy all the cuts that have a lot of fat content and lots of oily fish the darkest green veg I don't eat white bread lots of olives and anchovies all the good stuff I have a very well balanced diet interspersed with a fair bit of ale which is the only thing on the planet that contains the 14 things you need in life all in one pint, I also think people should pay more attention to work life balance and leave time for cooking much better than boxes of food from the supermarket, also people need to relise how much power they have were food is concerned when I go shopping I treat it like a job I know exactly what I am going for in and out is motto, next time you go in a supermarket take a look at how many folks just wander aimlessly around just chucking things in the trolly none of them have a list, right wheres my pint

MyQul said:

One thing that amuses me is one argument against veganism is that they'll dont get enough nutrients. I'd suggest most meat eaters (especially in the 'obesity crisis' hit UK) are far more nutrient deficient then any vegan. Simply because people in the UK dont eat enough fruit and veg. The governtments recommendations are 5 per day (a very conservative recommendation because they thought any more and people would struggle) and many, many people still dont even manage that

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yup it should be 10 a day I heard but that would turn off a lot of people. As for B12 in soil, I think i'll stick to marmite although I'm sure many would prefer to eat soil.

kelper said:

It seems the Mediterranean diet might have more health benefits than a vegan one. Personally, I try to eat a varied diet with little or no processed food, apart from essentials like beer, gin and whisky. And wine.

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I would argue, it depends how you define vegan diet. As I mentioned you can just as easily be a fat unhealthy vegan as you can be a fat unhealthy omnivore. From what I understand of the mediterranean diet it ephasises lots of unrefined fruit and veg plus good cuts of meat and fish. The cross over between a healthy vegan diet and a mediterranean one is of course lots of unrefined fruit and veg. So would argue that fruit and veg (as well as lots of fibre) is the real key to a healthy diet

dad_of_jon said:

yup it should be 10 a day I heard but that would turn off a lot of people. As for B12 in soil, I think i'll stick to marmite although I'm sure many would prefer to eat soil.

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To go back to suppliments again, many foods are fortified with vitamins and minerals. So if your vegan (unless like e you prefer to eat whole unrefined foods) you can as you say eat marmite or drnk fortified nut milk (Mrs MQ does both) for B12.

I ate loads of dirt as a kid. Didnt do me any harm

How many peaple would go vegan, if they were unable to tell anyone they were vegan?

I remember watching a scholarly documentary about the first humans, (Australopithecines etc.) based on fossil discoveries in the Rift Valley, including one nicknamed Lucy. Early hominids, which were largely vegetarian, were quadropedal and hence spent much of the time with their heads just 2 feet away from the heat of the savannah floor. This ambient temperature limited the amount of heat that could be radiated from the cranium, which in turn limited the size of brain that could be supported. One tribe of hominids made a change that allowed them to walk upright, grow larger and develop a larger brain, which in turn led to tool use, speech, social interaction, culture etc. The change they made was to adopt a higher energy diet by supplementing it with scavenged scraps of carnivore kills, using simple stone or wooden tools to extract bone marrow, brain etc. Later they developed the tools, tactics and skills to hunt and developed into the Omnivores, that Homo Sapiens remain to this day. Other tribes remained vegetarian and became extinct.

"If God hadn't intended intended us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of food!" - Homer Simpson

Like others have pointed out, I believe humans are omnivores (I think you'd have to be an idiot to believe humans are purely herbivore). Being ominivore allows a greater diversity of food and therefore a greater diversity of range of enviroments. Bears are the same. They are omnivores too and have a huge range of environment, living on almost all the continents of the earth. However I believe we are better adapted to some foods than others i.e. we are better adapted to eating fruits and vegatables than we are meat (I mentioned further up the thread how our guts are better adapted to to fruit and veg than meat. We can eat meat sure but it doesn't provide us with as much nutrition as fruit and veg, so we have adaptions to eat more of it. Being able to eat meat means we can live more places on the planet

MyQul said:

We can eat meat sure but it doesn't provide us with as much nutrition as fruit and veg

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The other way round, surely?

kelper said:

The other way round, surely?

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When I say fruit and veg, I also mean beans, legumes and grains (as out gut adaptions are just as suited to these as fruit and veg) possibly nuts, but these seem a bit harder to digest but not as hard as meat.

So if you compare how many macro and micro nutrients are provided by the above compared to how many are provided by meat

I respect all people’s opinions etc but as far as Vegetarians and Vegans are concerned there’s no proof that a meat free diet is any better for you so I’m sticking with my meat lol

I enjoy food so it's a good varied diet for me, I don't see any benefits for restricted diets and being vegan is not easy. I see no ethical higher plain either, it's just up to the individual. I think happiness is far more important so here's to Ken dod, I'm off for a pint

I must say, this thread has been an enjoyable read.....

Pansexual....I have a really sexy set of pans...all stainless steel with layered bases. I bought them 23 years ago and apart from a bit of a parted weld on one handle and a few minor dents they're great.
Great for cooking meat....and sacrificing the odd cauliflower.
It's true though we're designed to eat anything and everything and I think back in the day that would have been gluts of seasonal products.