Durden Park - Old British Beers

I recently bought a copy of this 72 page pamphlet that discusses brewing history and contains 131 recipes.
Am planning to do 15L batches or so, given the vast amounts of grain (and hops) used.
Anyone else tried any of these and what did they think?

I have in the past been very enthusiastic about brewing "big" or "special" beers, but few have, in truth, been as good as the "run of the mill" ones like the Riggwelter, Old Peculier, Summer Lightning, London Porter clones or toned down US style IPA's that make up most of the repertoire chez Slid.

I have a plan to brew a few of their recipes sometime in the future, there is quite a bit of discussion searching on Jim's beer kit about durden recipes and the brewing there of. The general consensus was that the beer (especially the ipa) would need time to mature

After reading the OP I ordered a copy and got it yesterday. Great little book, especially useful in that it tells you how to make your own amber and brown malts (which the Pattinson book doesn't tell you - not a lot of use!)
Looking forward to having a go at some of the weaker beers, which just happen to be stronger than most of the stronger beers I already brew!

Great recipes, but you do perhaps need to put in a bit of experience to adapt them? I've got the 1850 Porter recipe planned in the next month (in time for Christmas!). I've used the 1750 Porter recipe for inspiration (using my own take on emulating historic brown malt) and have twice created the "Ushers 60/- Pale Ale (1885)" recipe using Chavallier malt and loads of Goldings hops (and "Edinburgh" yeast). All those appear on their Website too. The last one is awesome (I guess they all are?): Tasting of honey (really!) whether that be the Chavallier malt or low-attenuating yeast, or both, or something else - who knows - and it is perfectly drinkable after 2 months, not 3 like the book says (but the "honey" flavour does need a couple of months to develop). The large IBU numbers using UK hops is no problem, although I haven't been tempted by the historic IPA recipes yet (my hop filter won't be up to it).

Odd one that Usher's 60/- PA, try looking it up and you'll get hits for Usher's 60/- mild! But the two did seem to co-exist. To cause further confusion the mild uses loads more hops!

Once started on these historic recipes you might not stop! And you might start nosing about for other sources. Another of my planned brews (yeast starter currently building) is this one: Victorian English Bitter. It does appear to be a (slightly) watered down Usher's 60/- PA recipe, but I've got plenty of the PA anyway. The recipe's unusual mash schedule looks a bit like a modern "Hochkurz" mash, which I'll use to get the moderately high attenuation despite the Chavallier malt and the "Ringwood" yeast.

Anyway, enough enthusing. Have fun!

peebee said:

Odd one that Usher's 60/- PA, try looking it up and you'll get hits for Usher's 60/- mild! But the two did seem to co-exist. To cause further confusion the mild uses loads more hops!

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Mild in those days meant young, as in what cask beer is now, the opposite to Stock (aged). PA and IPA could be stored for upto a year, regardless of whether they were shipped to india or not. This difference between mild or stock would likely determine whether the Brettanomyces in the wooden storage vessels of the time would have had an influence on the beer, also. Which is possibly why mild means young, as the beer hadn't had time to develop the sharper British (brettan-omyces) flavour that was so highly regarded at the time.

Chevallier Malt, Goldings and Edinburgh Yeast is a wonderous combination.

I have a copy of the Durden Park pamphlet after someone sent me a bottle of the Reading Bitter they brewed from it. I have brewed the Whitbread London Porter 1850 a few times now and it really excellent. Be warned though, as it needs at least 6 months to condition. In fact the longer the better!

I found a spreadsheet was the ideal tool to convert the old recipe's imperial measurements into metric and scale them into a reasonable brewing volume.

Just about to put in an order with the Homebrew company so I guess this time I won't be needing much speciality malts.
Not sure about some of the maturing times given. I frequently make the 1864 Lovibond XB from the Pattinson book (it's my favourite brew) but it's definitely at it's best as soon as the bottles have pressured up - wonderful floral aromas from the goldings hops. But these fade within a couple of weeks. Last time I brewed it I was drinking it just 11 days from starting the brew and it was great.

Slid said:

I recently bought a copy of this 72 page pamphlet that discusses brewing history and contains 131 recipes.
Am planning to do 15L batches or so, given the vast amounts of grain (and hops) used.
Anyone else tried any of these and what did they think?

I have in the past been very enthusiastic about brewing "big" or "special" beers, but few have, in truth, been as good as the "run of the mill" ones like the Riggwelter, Old Peculier, Summer Lightning, London Porter clones or toned down US style IPA's that make up most of the repertoire chez Slid.

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I've made quite a few of them and plan a few more. They bang on a lot about Pale Amber Malt and even suggest that you can substitute crystal malt of the same colour. I wouldn't do that, crystal would make the beer too sweet. Simpson's Imperial Malt is a tad darker than Pale Amber, but I use it as a substitute and it works great. Both Pale Amber and Simpson's Imperial are fully diastatic so you can use up to 100% if the recipe requires it.
I find the full recommended conditioning times really are needed, but I do it in the bottle and not in demijohns as they suggest.
The 63/- Oatmeal Stout uses too much oats to maintain a head, by the way.

An Ankoù said:

I've made quite a few of them and plan a few more. They bang on a lot about Pale Amber Malt and even suggest that you can substitute crystal malt of the same colour. I wouldn't do that, crystal would make the beer too sweet. Simpson's Imperial Malt is a tad darker than Pale Amber, but I use it as a substitute and it works great. Both Pale Amber and Simpson's Imperial are fully diastatic so you can use up to 100% if the recipe requires it.
I find the full recommended conditioning times really are needed, but I do it in the bottle and not in demijohns as they suggest.
The 63/- Oatmeal Stout uses too much oats to maintain a head, by the way.

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Thanks for this! yesterday I followed the instructions to roast just under a kilo of base malt (uncrushed) in the oven to a pale Amber sort of thing. Am intending to do a Pale Ale sort of a recipe over this weekend, as an experiment.
The base malt I got from Crafty Maltsters situated up near Perth way.
Will post the details in the Beer Brewdays section in due course.

AndyEW said:

I have a copy of the Durden Park pamphlet after someone sent me a bottle of the Reading Bitter they brewed from it. I have brewed the Whitbread London Porter 1850 a few times now and it really excellent. Be warned though, as it needs at least 6 months to condition. In fact the longer the better!

I found a spreadsheet was the ideal tool to convert the old recipe's imperial measurements into metric and scale them into a reasonable brewing volume.

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Indeed. Mine's been in the bottle for just over a couple of months now, and when I had a sneaky taster, I didn't find it special. Everybody who's commented on this recipe has said it's excellent so I'm quite happy to leave it until Christmas.

Cwrw666 said:

After reading the OP I ordered a copy and got it yesterday. Great little book, especially useful in that it tells you how to make your own amber and brown malts (which the Pattinson book doesn't tell you - not a lot of use!)
Looking forward to having a go at some of the weaker beers, which just happen to be stronger than most of the stronger beers I already brew!

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The weakest, if my memory serves me right is recipe #1 Cobb & Co Amber Small Beer. It's a really weird drink! The disproportionate amount of (ordinary, not pale) amber malt gives it a right old "twang" if you drink it young, but that mellows down with a couple of months' conditioning, although it's still unusual. I've brewed it a couple of times though as I've acquired the taste for it.

Some of my favourite beers I've brewed have been based on historic recipes, even if the modern equivalent malts/sugars are quite different from what they would have been like 150 years ago.

I particularly like the export stouts - pale, brown and black with a boat load of hops. Also the burtons have always been a winner.

An Ankoù said:

The weakest, if my memory serves me right is recipe #1 Cobb & Co Amber Small Beer. It's a really weird drink! The disproportionate amount of (ordinary, not pale) amber malt gives it a right old "twang" if you drink it young, but that mellows down with a couple of months' conditioning, although it's still unusual. I've brewed it a couple of times though as I've acquired the taste for it.

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I'm not finding that (interesting sounding beer though). Just glimpses of the brewery that was swallowed up by Whitbread in 1960s.

peebee said:

I'm not finding that (interesting sounding beer though). Just glimpses of the brewery that was swallowed up by Whitbread in 1960s.
View attachment 29474

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Here's the recipe converted into modern measures:
20 litres : OG 1042 : IBUs 35 (assuming the Fuggles in their recipe was 4% alpha acid)
It's called Cobb & Co Small Beer (1823)
2.75 Kg Pale Ale malt ( I used Crisp's Flagon)
1.25 Kg (ie 31%) Amber Malt (I used Crisp's 50 ebc)
Fuggles to 35 IBUs
Yeast isn't specified. I used M42 as I had some ready from a previous brew.

Use any decent Pale malt and any fairly attenuative yeast. It's important to use Fuggles. I made a later batch with Brewer's Gold and FIrst Gold and it wasn't as good.

It does say that modern amber malt is not the same as amber malt from the period. An appendix tells you how to make the proper stuff by roasting pale malt in your oven. Planning on giving this recipe a go as it's one of the few with a reasonable OG !

Cwrw666 said:

It does say that modern amber malt is not the same as amber malt from the period. An appendix tells you how to make the proper stuff by roasting pale malt in your oven. Planning on giving this recipe a go as it's one of the few with a reasonable OG !

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I thought the roasting business was for pale Amber malt. This recipe specifies ordinary Amber so I reckon it's OK to use ordinary Amber. I don't see that the home made stuff will be any different. Unlike the pale Amber which is roasted less. Nevertheless I'm going to have another look about what they say on the matter.

Yeah. The issue with Amber malts is availability not difference. The booklet was first published in 1976. A little later Brewpaks Guide to Grains was saying "Amber malt is a very rare British malt..." Durden Park do point out that brown malt was made differently and that it was diastatic, but the instructions for making your own, given in the appendix, will produce modern, non-diastatic brown malt so there seems to be no advantage when you can buy it off the shelf.
Harrison also says, in a number of places, that you can substitute carapils for pale Amber malt. While I haven't tried it, this seems crazy. It would produce beer of the correct colour, but much too sweet since caramalt puts caramel into the beer.
I use Simpson's Imperial instead of pale Amber and it works well even if it's a tad darker. I did think of trying Red-X as this is also a diastatic roast malt, which is a bit lighter, but this is unlike a British malt in that it's probably made from Pilsner malt and it's also seems to go through an acidulation phase since the SMaSH best bitter I made from it tastes as if there's a bit of acid malt in there.
Edit:
I see that Brewferm Amber Malt 41-49 ebc is also fully diastatic. This is probably what is being knocked out as Diastatic Belgian Amber Malt by some of the smaller homebrew suppliers. I think I'd still go with Simpson's Imperial.

An Ankoù said:

Harrison also says, in a number of places, that you can substitute carapils for pale Amber malt. While I haven't tried it, this seems crazy. It would produce beer of the correct colour, but much too sweet since caramalt puts caramel into the beer.

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Is the author being specific about carapils? Perhaps recommending the substitution for aiding foam stability. Carapils isn't a caramel malt it's a dextrine malt, it is stewed then dried rather roasted, it will add body and head retention without adding sweetness or caramel. Obviously, if you then sub that for caramalt or other crystal malts of higher ebc to match amber malt than you will be adding caramel.

Sadfield said:

Is the author being specific about carapils? Perhaps recommending the substitution for aiding foam stability. Carapils isn't a caramel malt it's a dextrine malt, it is stewed then dried rather roasted, it will add body and head retention without adding sweetness or caramel. Obviously, if you then sub that for caramalt or other crystal malts of higher ebc to match amber malt than you will be adding caramel.

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He seems to be have quite a vague notion of carapils, on p7 he says "Provided allowance is made for its poor diastatic performance, carapils (or caramalt) of a similar colour can be used as a substitute for pale amber." In the appendix, he says you can substitute crystal malt for brown malt! Since my carapils (both Bestmalz and Weyermann) are 5 ebc and my (Crisp's) caramalt is 28 ebc, and the pale amber he is substituting for is 30-35 ebc, I think he must be thinking of the latter and this will definitely change the flavour.
But even if we used carapils and whether you call it a dextrin malt or, as it is sometimes called "cara-crystal", it will add a sense of sweetness and body that light amber doesn't. We can get a similar effect by mashing at a high temperature. You're right when you say it isn't roasted, and that's the point: we want the roast flavour, particularly in recipe #7, Simond's Bitter, Reading, (1880), which I've made with Simpson's Imperial and it's delicious.

An Ankoù said:

Here's the recipe converted into modern measures:
20 litres : OG 1042 : IBUs 35 (assuming the Fuggles in their recipe was 4% alpha acid)
It's called Cobb & Co Small Beer (1823)
2.75 Kg Pale Ale malt ( I used Crisp's Flagon)
1.25 Kg (ie 31%) Amber Malt (I used Crisp's 50 ebc)
Fuggles to 35 IBUs
Yeast isn't specified. I used M42 as I had some ready from a previous brew.

Use any decent Pale malt and any fairly attenuative yeast. It's important to use Fuggles. I made a later batch with Brewer's Gold and FIrst Gold and it wasn't as good.

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Thanks very much. I did find the recipe, somewhere in the conversation I started referring to the wrong book! Now reacquainted with my Durden Park book again!

My 45L of Morrell & Co 1889 Bitter (not Durden Park) started fermenting last night (after a very long brewday yesterday). Mashing Chavallier malt "Hochkurz" fashion (mashed for 2 hours 40 minutes in 4 steps, the bulk at 62-3C) seems to work well; I was 3 points over estimated OG. Remains to be seen if the wort's fermentability was improved.