60 min vs 90 min boils

[Stuart Wilson]

Not hugely experienced brewer, but I do 90 min boils to get the gravity up. Have worked out a protocol for the whole brew day which always gives me 23 L of wort at the right SG. Just stick to same procedure now!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

With modern malts a 30 minute modern boil is adequate to give you modern wort. It’s the modern method.

 

[Sadfield]

With modern malts a 30 minute modern boil is adequate to give you modern wort. It’s the modern method.

Did you learn that at a secondary modern?

 

[marshbrewer]

Did you learn that at a secondary modern?

I am channelling the ghost of Christmas Heath......

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Did you learn that at a secondary modern?

I went to Sir John Deane’s Grammar School in Northwich. 1963-70.

 

[user 43495]

What are the advantages of a shorter and longer boil time? It seems the norm is to do either a 60 or 90 minute boil but the only advantage I can see for doing a 90 minute boil is marginally more bitterness and a little less flavour from the early additions. Am I missing something obvious?

I do my boil in an 18gall kettle and get a really vigorous boil with the hops always loose, never in a bag. I boil for about an hour and a quarter and usually do a late hop addition for the last 15 mins.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

So nobody really had an answer for my question, so I've decided I will try a 30 minute boil on my Floor Malted Pilsner, and post back the results here when the beer is complete.

If it's full of DMS I'll try again with a longer boil.

I'm pleased to report that after the 30 minute boil yesterday, the wort tastes fine

I still step-mashed for 90 mins with the Floor-Malted stuff though and came out 2 points short of OG, so I'm glad I did or I might have been even more under.

So a turnaround from me on the floor-malted pilsner.

I have been waiting over 7 weeks for my Festbier to be drinkable, and now it's reasonably clear and smoothed out, the DMS flavour has spoiled it. It wasn't noticable until now.

Conclusion - I'm not risking a 30 minute boil on that particular malt anymore. Very sad.

I feel like the less vigorous boil on the G40 compared to my old Brewzilla is partly to blame.

 

[DocAnna]

So a turnaround from me on the floor-malted pilsner.

I have been waiting over 7 weeks for my Festbier to be drinkable, and now it's reasonably clear and smoothed out, the DMS flavour has spoiled it. It wasn't noticable until now.

Conclusion - I'm not risking a 30 minute boil on that particular malt anymore. Very sad.

I feel like the less vigorous boil on the G40 compared to my old Brewzilla is partly to blame.

Really sorry to hear this, is worth mentioning that yeast produces DMS in beer when stressed and a small amount is necessary in a lager anyway. If I may suggest, options you have at this stage are: Warm conditioning it for a few weeks to let any residual yeast in suspension metabolise the DMS. You could add some glucose along with a small amount of extra yeast - either F2 or the yeast you used initially (I've a spare big sachet of F2 if you'd like me to send you it - though not sure it's in date - you only need s pinch). Other option is to dry hop which will mask the DMS.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Thanks for that Anna, and very kind offer. Will bear that yeast advice in mind next time.

The husband made a big hole in it last night as he likes it (he likes everything), so we think we are going to drink it like it is and take it as a lesson learned.

It's very strange as sometimes I can taste the DMS and sometimes I can't. Was going to ask a question on a different thread but I didn't think anyone would be able to help. I wondered if the odd taste was down to my beer lines, but I've been purple line cleaning them every 2 weeks on the dot.

The Munich in it was a little harsh at first, so I've been waiting for it to smooth out which it mostly has now, but I think the toasty flavour was masking the DMS a bit.

It's making me want to send a bottle out to someone who is good at identifying DMS so they can tell me if it really does have it, because I'm not 100% sure. I was going to send it into LAB but I'll find something else now.

 

[Sadfield]

Sending it to LAB for BJCP feedback would answer your doubts, if its feasible to enter it along with something else.

Everyone's threshold to DMS is different, a group of judges would be better than sending it to one individual. Plus they won't be expecting or looking for a problem.

I wonder if our threshold level varies from day to day.

 

[DocAnna]

I'm no expert in DMS, like you sometimes I think I can taste/smell it and sometimes not so much. There are a small number of recognised genetic differences in perception of flavour/aroma molecules and although DMS isn't one I've seen described, I do wonder if it is one of those that has variable perception.

F2 yeast FWIW is good to have around to sort out off flavours and speed up maturation. It adds on several weeks to conditioning but I think of it as a 'repair' yeast. The Fermentis guidance only uses a tiny amount from the sachet so I keep a sachet on hand in the fridge to add a bit if needed. SafAle™ F-2

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I wonder if our threshold level varies from day to day.

I wonder that too.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I'm no expert in DMS, like you sometimes I think I can taste/smell it and sometimes not so much. There are a small number of recognised genetic differences in perception of flavour/aroma molecules and although DMS isn't one I've seen described, I do wonder if it is one of those that has variable perception.

F2 yeast FWIW is good to have around to sort out off flavours and speed up maturation. It adds on several weeks to conditioning but I think of it as a 'repair' yeast. The Fermentis guidance only uses a tiny amount from the sachet so I keep a sachet on hand in the fridge to add a bit if needed. SafAle™ F-2

Thank you Anna, will look at it.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I wonder that too.

Taste perception certainly varies throughout the day. We can taste and smell better during the morning and fades a little bit during the day, and strong tastes/odours like coffee/toothpaste have the effect of desensitising our receptors. That's why the master blenders at vineyards/distilleries that we've been around always do their work in the morning, have a bland breakfast and never coffee before tasting samples. We were taught this at a tasting masterclass at an Islay distillery (I think it was Caol Ila, but could have been Laphroaig) when we were there for the festival a few years ago

I would expect that sensitivity to DMS and other chemicals would follow a similar pattern and probably vary between days.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Taste perception certainly varies throughout the day. We can taste and smell better during the morning and fades a little bit during the day, and strong tastes/odours like coffee/toothpaste have the effect of desensitising our receptors. That's why the master blenders at vineyards/distilleries that we've been around always do their work in the morning, have a bland breakfast and never coffee before tasting samples. We were taught this at a tasting masterclass at an Islay distillery (I think it was Caol Ila) when we were there for the festival a few years ago

I would expect that sensitivity to DMS and other chemicals would follow a similar pattern.

Funny you should say that AG. My Festbier always tastes fine in the morning funnily enough, (yes I had a sip this morning for science) but rank on a night time. There is literally no toasty flavour at all on a night and it's overpowered by the DMS, but on a morning the toasty is fully back and no sign of DMS. What's going on?

I don't think I want to send it into the comp as I'd be embarrassed if they had a taste of my night-time version of it lol. Plus I've probably got things without off-flavours which would be better placed.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Conclusion - I'm not risking a 30 minute boil on that particular malt anymore. Very sad.

I feel like the less vigorous boil on the G40 compared to my old Brewzilla is partly to blame.

Interesting. What is the boil like on the G40? I know it's hard to describe how vigorous a boil is (partly why I think there is such variation in results) but could you give it a try? I've been varying boil power on my G30 after getting the neoprene 'graincoat' as it's too powerful with it on.

I tried my first 30 minute boil recently, largely due to the advice on the forum to give it a try (pale ale, NZ hops, mostly Irish minch lager malt with a bit of munich, wheat and crystal). It's turned out lovely, and the head retention is excellent. No hints of DMS at all (not that I'm an expert taster), but it's only been in the bottles for 10 days so far. I'll see how it progresses over the next 2 months.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

What is the boil like on the G40?

To be honest, compared to the Brewzilla, it's piddly.

When it advises it's reached a boil, it needs another 5 minutes before I'm happy to start the boil timer.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I don't think I want to send it into the comp as I'd be embarrassed if they had a taste of my night-time version of it lol. Plus I've probably got things without off-flavours which would be better placed.

Maybe send it in to one of the forum comps/bottle swaps that are 'less serious', knowing that you're not proud of it but just to get a second opinion? Is the new April comp the lager one that you could squeeze the festbier into?

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I honestly wouldn't send anything out if I had doubts about it, so not going to share this time.

 

[Agentgonzo]

To be honest, compared to the Brewzilla, it's piddly.

When it advises it's reached a boil, it needs another 5 minutes before I'm happy to start the boil timer.

I found this a while ago.

With that as a benchmark, how would you describe the boil of your G40 and your Brewzilla?
(I would say that mine is probably between Levels 2 (slow boil) and 4 (vigourous boil)) - not to say that's 'correct'!