Blackberry Sour

[ClownPrince]

It's been a minute since I've done a brew so I was hoping someone could quickly appraise my planned brew for next week.

Mash:
60 mins @ 60 degrees Celsius
I'll probably mash in about 13 litres of water and then add another 10 litres before I boil.

Grains:
2kg Bohemian Pilsner Malt,
2kg Pale Wheat Malt

Other Fermentables (I plan on dropping these in 5 mins before the end of boil):
500g table sugar,
1kg Blackberries (pureed).

Boil:
60 mins

Hops:
6g Admiral pellets

Yeast:
2 packs of Philly Sour yeast.

Other Notes:
I have a load more blackberries (about another kilo) that I plan to Puree, boil and then add once fermentation is seemingly complete.

Am I missing anything, i've not used the Philly Sour yeast before but from my digging on youtube it seems super easy, very plug in and play.
Any notes appreciated, as I said it's been a good while since I've done a brew so feel free to treat me like an idiot.

 

[Rwilts]

Did a cherry sour using same yeast , was a 23 litre batch with 5kg of grain and one packet was plenty.. depends on how sour you want it

 

[Rwilts]

You have prompted me..

 

[ClownPrince]

You have prompted me..

Prost

 

[Redgrave_3]

Sounds good. I used 1.5kg of frozen peaches in a similar sized batch and that came out nice, not overly fruity but unmistakably peach. I didn’t add any sugar or fruit to the boil but my wort was probably a little stronger than yours. I also fermented pretty warm at 26c with one packet of Philly and it finished with a ph of 3.4.

 

[YeastFace]

There are ways to coax more or less sourness out of the yeast.

There's a great video on YouTube which goes through this, but from memory:

More glucose increases sourness (so add some dextrose to your kettle).

Adding fruit at yeast pitch increases sourness (this may reduce the perceived fruitiness, so perhaps splitting your fruit additions into two may help).

Pre-adjusting your PH should have some impact on the terminal PH.

You can add a second yeast once the Philly sour has got the wort to a PH level you want - the second yeast will outcompete the Philly and stop any further souring.

 

[u407255]

I agree with adding a bit of dextrose to the boil (about 200g for 23l is fine). Mashing at a slightly lower temperature can help with the sourness as well.

 

[ClownPrince]

Quick update.
Brewday went off almost completely hitchless.
Had slightly more blackberries than I thought so 1.2kg went in rather than the 1kg i intended.
Left it chilling overnight and added the yeast this morning.
Smells and looks amazing.

 

[Rwilts]

Looking forward to seeing the colour of this one

 

[ClownPrince]

Here's the pictures from Brewday.

 

[ClownPrince]

Looking forward to seeing the colour of this one

Just put the brewday pictures up. I'll update this as I have updates.

 

[peterpiper]

A picture when the brew is finished would be good.

This sounds a nice use for some of this year's blackcurrants, and finishing last years frozen ones.
Is Philly Sour, reckoned to be a good choice for soured fruit beers?

Is pectinase needed to avoid a pectin haze (as with fruit wines)?

I suspect blackcurrant flavour is better, if the seeds are not chopped up. But would mashed (=crushed) fruit, be likely to block an AIO bottom or pump?
Boiling and straining (as for blackcurrant jelly) is a bit tedious.
Have a rotary fruit press. Not sure if that would separate juice from blackcurrants,, but sure it would end up stained.

Would fermenting on the mashed berries, work just as well?
To sterilise blackcurrants for home-winemaking. I'd either soak in metabisulphite before draining then mashing (crushing), or covering mashed fruit in boiling water, then adding sugar & cold water. I ferment on the fruit for around 7 days.

 

[ClownPrince]

UPDATE!
I transferred this to a secondary fermenter and added another 1.1kg of blackberries yesterday. I only boiled rather than pureeing and straining the second load of blackberries. I think maybe I've done this backwards. Anyway, I've got a new Krausen on the go and the Airlock is going ham. Also, when I opened it to siphon it smelled amazing. If i'd bought a beer that smelled like that I'd be very happy. Hopefully I haven't ruined it.

 

[peterpiper]

.... added another 1.1kg of blackberries yesterday. I only boiled rather than pureeing and straining the second load of blackberries. I think maybe I've done this backwards. ....

Does that mean, in future, you'd only boil the initial berries?
And still add them, at 5min before end of wort boil?

I'm not sure my BZ4 filter, would cope with a kilo or more fruit.
Is there something special happening when boiling wort and fruit together? Or could the boiled fruit, just go in fermenter

 

[ClownPrince]

Does that mean, in future, you'd only boil the initial berries?
And still add them, at 5min before end of wort boil?

I'm not sure my BZ4 filter, would cope with a kilo or more fruit.
Is there something special happening when boiling wort and fruit together? Or could the boiled fruit, just go in fermenter

I boiled them on the stovetop separate to the boil of the wort.
I'm not sure what I meant, by doing it the other way around.
Anyway, it's bottling day today. Expect pictures later (edit, hopefully not of how i killed my beer).

 

[ClownPrince]

The promised update from bottling day. I got 22 650(ish)ml bottles from just shy of 20 litres. The tap and siphon were both clogging to the point it wasn't worth the effort carrying on. Had a little taster though and I did good. A little thinner than I would have liked but tasted amazing. Hopefully that'll work itself out with two weeks conditioning.

 

[peterpiper]

Looking good.
How sour did it turn out, & do you know the final PH or FG?

What seemed thin, fruitiness / body / maltiness ...?
What was the recipe batch size?

Was clogging from blackberries, and were you bottling straight from the secondary fermenter?

When doing country -hedgerow wines, fermented on the fruit, I usually get a large trub layer.

Sometimes, with fruits like blackberries & raspberries, after months, the trub might hardly have settled at all. Instead staying a thick, semi-liquid layer. Maybe all the tiny surface hairs / spikes, you get on those fruits, 'bulk up' the trub.

 

[ClownPrince]

Looking good.
How sour did it turn out, & do you know the final PH or FG?

What seemed thin, fruitiness / body / maltiness ...?
What was the recipe batch size?

Was clogging from blackberries, and were you bottling straight from the secondary fermenter?

When doing country -hedgerow wines, fermented on the fruit, I usually get a large trub layer.

Sometimes, with fruits like blackberries & raspberries, after months, the trub might hardly have settled at all. Instead staying a thick, semi-liquid layer. Maybe all the tiny surface hairs / spikes, you get on those fruits, 'bulk up' the trub.

I didn't take any readings. Honestly I always forget to do gravity readings and I don't have a PH meter.
Taste wise it wasn't overbearingly sour, but it definitely had a tartness to it. I like my beers sour so it might be more sour than I'm making out.

It just felt a bit watery really. I know it looks thick in the pictures, but in practice that wasn't the case.

The clogging was from the blackberries, the seeds in particular. I did bottle directly from the secondary. I reckon I can mitigate this next time by having them in a bag rather than floating free.

The trub layer didn't seem too big in either primary or secondary, consistent with what I've seen when I've done IPAs etc previously. Nicer colour mind.

Anyway, I'll probably do one more check in on this in a couple of weeks once it's conditioned a bit. Thank you everyone for helping and if anyone has any more questions just holler.

Next up for me will be a Simcoe SMASH IPA. Doubt i'll need a recipe check for that.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

There are ways to coax more or less sourness out of the yeast.

One of the most critical factors is pitching rate, Philly Sour is really sensitive to pitch rate which is why people have problems with reusing it. Just going from 1bn cells/litre to 2bn cells/litre can increase the final pH by 0.2-0.3.

See the suigeneris blogs I linked to over in the main HBT thread :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...xperience-to-share.682096/page-7#post-9085562

 

[ClownPrince]

Final update on this.
Very very nice beer. A bit watery still but there's blackberry flavour and nice tartness to it and a lovely colour.
I'd be very happy to pay decent pennies for this at a craft bar.
Might try adding a small amount of lactose sugar for some body next time I do a sour, but not going to drift too far from this formula. When you're winning you're winning.