Cloudwater in trouble?

[strange-steve]

Apparently Cloudwater brewery are being evicted from their current premises and are concerned for their future. It'd be a shame if anything happened to them, they're probably one of the most interesting breweries in the UK right now.

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2017/11/30/Cloudwater-Brew-Co-faces-eviction

 

[Sadfield]

Saw that the other day. As they started trading around two and a half years ago, something about it doesn't ring true. Either they are over playing the impact of this, or they were incredibly naive with the lease and infrastructure they built.

"Inspiration is the impact of a fact on a well-prepared mind" Louis Pasteur

 

[bigbud78]

Not all as it seems

@cloudwaterbrew

More Cloudwater Brew Co Retweeted James Beeson
Nope:
1. Mutual break in lease on 6/8/19, 6 month notice period, but we need to be prepared 12 months in advance (can’t move a brewery quickly).
2. Landlord has rolling 12 month notice period after 2019 break, until our lease drops dead with no auto right to renew 6/8/22.


Cloudwater

More Cloudwater Brew Co Retweeted Phil
Non negotiable clause in the lease. It happened because there is, ultimately, a plan to demolish our entire trading estate and beyond, to make room for a new mixed use neighbourhood (apartments/offices/retail).
Harsh for us, but needed protection for landlords...Cloudwater Brew Co added,
Phil

@filgarvey
Replying to @cloudwaterbrew
What?! All that upfront investment with no auto right to renew under '54 Act. How did that happen?!
4 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
Reply 4 Retweet 1

 

[Ajhutch]

Hope it doesn't cause too much disruption. One of my favourite British breweries.


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[Sadfield]

So they have always known a move would be necessary, but haven't accounted for it in their business model? or they were too ambitious in their projections and cannot afford it.

 

[BeerCat]

Where can you buy their beer?

 

[stigman]

Nooooo! I can't imagine a world without cloudwater DIPA'S.
I'm Gona have to up my brewing game now.

 

[stigman]

Where can you buy their beer?

They have an online store pal.

 

[IainM]

Yeah their DIPA, especially the earlier ones, are top notch. I think the quality dropped a bit when they started the monthly release, and they started adding loads of oats. I can't see something as silly as this sinking them. The pub down the road sells their cans at £8 a pop, and despite the price, there is no shortage of buyers.

 

[Sadfield]

Meh. They do a few things well. Don't match the hype for me, not great at other styles and I see NEIPA slowly becoming just another style. Their pricing on other beers is often ridiculous, for example, £4+ for 440ml of Helles when you can get a well made German Helles 500ml for under £3.

"Inspiration is the impact of a fact on a well-prepared mind" Louis Pasteur

 

[Linalmeemow]

Where can you buy their beer?

Brewklopedia, Welford Road. �£5 a can.

Yes, you read it right. �£5 a can. Madness. I've argued with people on here before (very unlike me...) about Cloudwater. I am not a fan. Anyone who makes beer that costs that much has lost sight of the point of beer in my opinion, and has jumped on the hipster bull**** train.

 

[IainM]

Agreed to a point. Some of their beers are vastly overpriced, especially the lagers. However, if the DIPA has twice the abv as a standard beer, and takes twice as much malt and twice as many hops, and they pay more than twice as much in alcohol duty, then it is silly to expect to pay any less than twice the price. I'd also happily pay for some of their boundary-pushing beers, like the bergamot sour, which are a revelation. I also think their versions of resurrected styles, like the lichtenhainer and the grisette, are worth it if only because they are a window into the past and are nigh-on impossible to find elsewhere.

 

[nigelnorris]

If the DIPA has twice the abv as a standard beer, and takes twice as much malt and twice as many hops, and they pay more than twice as much in alcohol duty, then it is silly to expect to pay any less than twice the price.

I'm not sure that the arithmetic makes sense. Malt, hops, and tax only make up about 1/3 of the cost of beer, and tax doesn't double when you double the strength. I think that doubling the abv adds only about 25% to its costs.

 

[Sadfield]

tax doesn't double when you double the strength.

Yes it does, the duty rate as a product of Rate per hectolitre and ABV. The duty rate goes up further if a 7.5% threshold is reached. So Cloudwater DIPAs are taxed more than double that of a 4% beer. If the brewery choose to double the retail price pro rata then the VAT will double.

Duty Rates

Saying that the Duty on a 440ml can at 8% is 87p. Their hopping rate at more than 30g a litre would mean that there is around 50p worth of hops per can of DIPA. So it is easy to see that selling at £3 a can is unfeasible as after VAT, the brewery would only get £1.03 to cover all other costs.

British beer has become weaker over the centuries mainly because it is more profitable to brew at lower ABV on a larger scale. I would argue, blander for it, until certain areas of the market were inspired by US and european brewers.

 

[BeerCat]

Brewklopedia, Welford Road. �£5 a can.

Yes, you read it right. �£5 a can. Madness. I've argued with people on here before (very unlike me...) about Cloudwater. I am not a fan. Anyone who makes beer that costs that much has lost sight of the point of beer in my opinion, and has jumped and the hipster bull**** train.

Ah cheers. I went down there to grab a few beers for a friend and they had not opened the shop. Hung around for a while and left empty handed. I did notice there was a 330ml oak aged RIS in the window which was over £7 though. Will have to go back and get a few tins out of curiosity. My own attempt was completely undrinkable.

 

[Sadfield]

Anyone who makes beer that costs that much has lost sight of the point of beer in my opinion

Which is?

"Inspiration is the impact of a fact on a well-prepared mind" Louis Pasteur

 

[terrym]

If the gist of the OP is correct and they can't afford to move when the inevitable happens (business risk management whats that??) whether their beers are overpriced, fantastic hipster juice or otherwise won't matter a jot because they are unlikely to continue to be in business.
And can you imagine James Watt (Brewdog) being in this position. His motto, as far as I am concerned from the little I have seen of him is business first, beer second, which is how it should be if you want to be successful.

 

[Brew_DD2]

If the gist of the OP is correct and they can't afford to move when the inevitable happens (business model/plan whats that??) whether their beers are overpriced, fantastic hipster juice or otherwise won't matter a jot because they are unlikely to continue to be in business.
And can you imagine James Watt (Brewdog) being in this position. His motto, as far as I am concerned from the little I have seen of him is business first, beer second, which is how it should be if you want to be successful.

I disagree with the point about BrewDog. They are business savvy (whether you like them or not) but it's never been at the expense of beer quality. Cloudwater have been shortsighted here or are perhaps over-egging the pudding in the hope of crowd funding.

 

[terrym]

I disagree with the point about BrewDog. They are business savvy (whether you like them or not) but it's never been at the expense of beer quality. Cloudwater have been shortsighted here or are perhaps over-egging the pudding in the hope of crowd funding.

Whether I like them or not is irrelevant. Good beer quality is without doubt part of Brewdogs business plan, as a brewer it must be one of their guiding principles But there are other important issues in their plan as well for the business to continue to be successful. So it's business first, beer second.

 

[Linalmeemow]

Which is?

"Inspiration is the impact of a fact on a well-prepared mind" Louis Pasteur

It's the drink of the people, should be affordable to all and should not be touched by snobbery or elitism. I love good beers, real ale and craft, but I can't abide the wanky "artisan" image that the beer scene has. Cloudwater has got by on this image rather than producing really good beers in my experience. All marketing and hype.

In my opinion, of course.

(Disclaimer - other opinions are available).