DavieC
Landlord.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2018
- Messages
- 676
- Reaction score
- 456
Help Support The Homebrew Forum:
Hi guys
Sorry for the delay, am at work. Yes the carbonation seems to be just fine. I get the satisfying pop when I open the bottle each time which leads me to think they are airtight. As mentioned I use swing-top bottles.
So assuming they are airtight, the problem could potentially be in the lead up to sealing the bottles - the bottling process, or the cooling of the wort potentially. Also, as suggested earlier, filling up higher in the bottles as I appear to be leaving a fair amount of headspace.
I’m keen to give the PET bottle suggestion a try to help rule out actual issues with the swing top bottles themselves.
Sorry for the delay, am at work. Yes the carbonation seems to be just fine. I get the satisfying pop when I open the bottle each time which leads me to think they are airtight. As mentioned I use swing-top bottles.
So assuming they are airtight, the problem could potentially be in the lead up to sealing the bottles - the bottling process, or the cooling of the wort potentially. Also, as suggested earlier, filling up higher in the bottles as I appear to be leaving a fair amount of headspace.
I’m keen to give the PET bottle suggestion a try to help rule out actual issues with the swing top bottles themselves.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2019
- Messages
- 7,697
- Reaction score
- 10,283
The picture of the bottle looks like bottles from IKEA. I don't think they are designed for holding beer.
Sadfield
Landlord.
This certainly sounds like oxidation to me. Given the speed at which the beers are degrading, I'd agree with the headspace issue, that others have raised. Swing tops aren't perfect, but that is usually reported as long term staling/loss of carbonation issue, cause by the permeability of the rubber stopper. Similarly, PET won't solve your issue, and is actually more permeable to oxygen than a glass swing top, over time.
I'd start by reducing the headspace and go from there. Perhaps, purposely leave one of your next batch with more headspace than the others, to see if it degrades quicker.
Then invest in some brown, glass bottles and a good crown capper.
I'd start by reducing the headspace and go from there. Perhaps, purposely leave one of your next batch with more headspace than the others, to see if it degrades quicker.
Then invest in some brown, glass bottles and a good crown capper.
JonBrew
Landlord.
+1 for oxidation - your problem has all the hallmarks
i dont think your cooling process is to blame as others have suggested. 20 mins with the lid off doesnt seem like it could produce the results you're seeing the in the end product, particularly as the yeast 'should' be metabolising pretty much all the oxygen present up to that point. therefore the issue as others have suggested would likely be coming post fermentation and probably in relation to your bottling practices.
do you notice any bubbles in the siphon tubing when bottling? even a small leak could be allowing a notable amount of oxygen in.
the unfortunate truth for those of us who bottle condition their beers is that even with good practices being employed, oxidation is a big risk particularly with hoppy pale ales and IPA (one of the reasons I dont brew them). the last DIPA i made was great but i drank the entire (12L) batch within 3-4 weeks. had it gone longer I'm certain it would have started to go down hill fast.
this is why some will say brewing NEIPA is pretty much a waste of time and money unless you're kegging with good LODO methods.
appreciate your beer is turning brown after a couple of weeks which does seem to speak to a process issue which is allowing significant oxygen ingress and premature staling. but the point above point still stands.
another thought, how warm are you storing these bottles once packaged?
the higher the temp, or worse big temp swings, would worsen/promote premature staling, i.e. a warm garage or shed this time of year.
i dont think your cooling process is to blame as others have suggested. 20 mins with the lid off doesnt seem like it could produce the results you're seeing the in the end product, particularly as the yeast 'should' be metabolising pretty much all the oxygen present up to that point. therefore the issue as others have suggested would likely be coming post fermentation and probably in relation to your bottling practices.
do you notice any bubbles in the siphon tubing when bottling? even a small leak could be allowing a notable amount of oxygen in.
the unfortunate truth for those of us who bottle condition their beers is that even with good practices being employed, oxidation is a big risk particularly with hoppy pale ales and IPA (one of the reasons I dont brew them). the last DIPA i made was great but i drank the entire (12L) batch within 3-4 weeks. had it gone longer I'm certain it would have started to go down hill fast.
this is why some will say brewing NEIPA is pretty much a waste of time and money unless you're kegging with good LODO methods.
appreciate your beer is turning brown after a couple of weeks which does seem to speak to a process issue which is allowing significant oxygen ingress and premature staling. but the point above point still stands.
another thought, how warm are you storing these bottles once packaged?
the higher the temp, or worse big temp swings, would worsen/promote premature staling, i.e. a warm garage or shed this time of year.
Thanks all
At this stage if someone said fill a bottle, turn around three times and spit on the floor, I’d do that.
Last batch I did try to store the bottles at an even temp of around 22c but may have fluctuated.
Definitely a time for experimentation. So to summarise so far I will:
- Use a control bottle set consisting of PET, clear swing-top, and possibly brown.
- Ensure I reduce head space in the bottles
- Close the lid whilst the wort is cooling to reduce oxygen exposure
- Try keep the fermentation temp down as it’s running hotter than it should
- Ensure after bottling they are kept as close as possible to the temp in the carboy - 18-21c. Plus in a dark place.
- Review my bottling methods to ensure a smoother, oxygen-free route down from the carboy into each bottle.
At this stage if someone said fill a bottle, turn around three times and spit on the floor, I’d do that.
Last batch I did try to store the bottles at an even temp of around 22c but may have fluctuated.
Definitely a time for experimentation. So to summarise so far I will:
- Use a control bottle set consisting of PET, clear swing-top, and possibly brown.
- Ensure I reduce head space in the bottles
- Close the lid whilst the wort is cooling to reduce oxygen exposure
- Try keep the fermentation temp down as it’s running hotter than it should
- Ensure after bottling they are kept as close as possible to the temp in the carboy - 18-21c. Plus in a dark place.
- Review my bottling methods to ensure a smoother, oxygen-free route down from the carboy into each bottle.
As @JonBrew has mentioned above about bubbles in your siphon hose as I've had that issue before using an auto siphon which was allowing air to be drawn in.
Don't use the auto siphon anymore as I half fill the hose with sanitiser and draw into a jug to prime the line with beer now when I bottle.
I did notice a huge difference as it was like drinking cardboard in the few bottles this happened to and only one brew.
The thing is it's one common denominator linking them all.
Don't use the auto siphon anymore as I half fill the hose with sanitiser and draw into a jug to prime the line with beer now when I bottle.
I did notice a huge difference as it was like drinking cardboard in the few bottles this happened to and only one brew.
The thing is it's one common denominator linking them all.
I thought many people recommended leaving the beer on the yeast to let it clear up all the unwanted stuff?
I’ve left a beer for 5 weeks and it was fine but maybe luck.
stephen1546
Regular.
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2018
- Messages
- 265
- Reaction score
- 64
stephen1546
Regular.
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2018
- Messages
- 265
- Reaction score
- 64
I always seem to create bubbles when bottling, I just pour into bottle from the tap on the fermenter. Never had that oxidised problem. I use swing top empty Grolsch bottles. Hope you get to the bottom of the problem
Use both Kilner swingtop and crown cap bottles but my issue was the siphon.Sorted now as I keg mostly and seldom bottle.
I'm still struggling to understand oxidation after 8 years of brewing and 160+ brews. Some brews have been less than ideal so I may have had it but I don't really know. Is there a sure-fire way to check?
In a way, that's the problem with the internet: some problems like this aren't obvious so you'll get lots of opinions without a concrete answer.
In a way, that's the problem with the internet: some problems like this aren't obvious so you'll get lots of opinions without a concrete answer.
another +1 for oxidation here.
I didn't really notice it until trying to brew a NEIPA - made me wonder if all my beers were suffering (less noticeably) and I've certainly seen an improvement since trying to reduce oxidation as much as possible.
I made a thread about it, with some pictures, last year - might be usefull
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/neipa-oxidation.75563/
I didn't really notice it until trying to brew a NEIPA - made me wonder if all my beers were suffering (less noticeably) and I've certainly seen an improvement since trying to reduce oxidation as much as possible.
I made a thread about it, with some pictures, last year - might be usefull
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/neipa-oxidation.75563/
I just bottled my first ag, I did notice from time to time the odd bubble in the bottling wand will keep my eye on this and report back, I hate bottling think I am going to get a couple more pb,s never had a problem with the one I have, it's a youngs I have never had to back the lid off or put any gas in it, 95 to 100g gran suger boiled in 200ml of water cooled and that's it, just tried a small glass of wilko lager after 5 days was surprised how clear it was needs more carbonation yet will try it again next week
Drunkula
Landlord.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2017
- Messages
- 2,617
- Reaction score
- 2,331
It's just one of those tastes you can become aware of. If you do any bottling then take off a litre or something into a jug or 2 litre pop bottle, shake the cack out of it and bottle those with an X on the lid or something. I'm doing the second round of my oxygenation tests right now and with this kit the oxidation almost reminds me of a cheap toffee apple, in fact that's the best description I've ever come up with for the way I taste oxidation. I'll have to remember that for the notes.
They do, and I just don't buy it. For me, every batch I brewed where the beer was left in the fermenter longer than two weeks developed the same horrible oxidised flavour. The 5 week thing might work for some people, but it really doesn't take that long for yeast to do its work, including the cleaning up.
It's a practice that is peddled so much that I was willing to believe it was anything else in my process. It's like 60 minute boils and transferring to secondary vessels; totally arbitrary.
DavieC
Landlord.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2018
- Messages
- 676
- Reaction score
- 456
Just a thought on this but if the swing top bottles were leaking during secondry ferment/carbing wouldnt that just lead to flat beer? Surely the fermented beer is saturated with co2 and the carbonation in the bottle even if its leaking would drive off oxygen and create co2 and protect the beer for a certain amount of time ? Ive been making wine recently and the degassing after its fermented releases masses of co2 held in the wine.
I have never had an issue with oxidation and never been especially careful to avoid it. I was before this thread always under the impression that all the live yeast left in the beer would deal with it and it was only things that have had the yeast killed or filtered out (ie wine) that had a serious risk.
Sadfield
Landlord.
Yes, but oxidation can still occur sealed bottles. The headspace will contain both CO2 and oxygen.
The protective blanket of CO2 is a bit of a myth. Under vigorous fermentation there will be more CO2 at the wort surface, but it doesn't sit there, it will quickly mix with other gases in the surrounding atmosphere. In bottle conditioning co2 gasses off into the headspace, mixes with the air that was in the bottle and then is reabsorbed as the pressure in the headspace increases. This is one of the causes of oxidation along with dissolved oxygen picked up during transfer and earlier in the brewing process.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
I use swing top bottle (Fischer Tradition sometimes) and I've never had any problems with pressure leakage. I also use PETs regularly (Peregrino and Perrier) and, even after a year there's no pressure drop or oxidation issues. I can imagine that oxygen diffusion would be an issue for flat liquids like white wine for example put not when there's a healthy pressure of CO2 inside.
In any case three or four days isn't enough for discolouration and oxidation of a still-fermenting beer.
I reckon the butterscotch flavour is certainly diacetyl. You say you bottle straight from the primary fermenter. Are you carrying out a diacetyl rest first? Do you know how to do this? Do older bottles taste less of butterscotch?
The dark cloud of doom starting at the top of the bottle and working its way down sound very much like metal contamination, probably iron. Iron turns black in the presence of tannins and tannins are present in your beer. Do you use iron or mild steel anywhere in the process? Is your groundwater contaminated with iron?
Suggest you try brewing up a batch with bottled water from Tesco or ASDA and see if you get the same blackening. Don't forget the diacetyl rest although the two problems are unrelated.
Where do you live, Devlin? I wonder if others using the same water supply get a similar problem.
In any case three or four days isn't enough for discolouration and oxidation of a still-fermenting beer.
I reckon the butterscotch flavour is certainly diacetyl. You say you bottle straight from the primary fermenter. Are you carrying out a diacetyl rest first? Do you know how to do this? Do older bottles taste less of butterscotch?
The dark cloud of doom starting at the top of the bottle and working its way down sound very much like metal contamination, probably iron. Iron turns black in the presence of tannins and tannins are present in your beer. Do you use iron or mild steel anywhere in the process? Is your groundwater contaminated with iron?
Suggest you try brewing up a batch with bottled water from Tesco or ASDA and see if you get the same blackening. Don't forget the diacetyl rest although the two problems are unrelated.
Where do you live, Devlin? I wonder if others using the same water supply get a similar problem.
