Kveik

[entertheflagon]

My first tack with wet yeasts were 20 years back with kilner jars of the wet stuff from the backdoor of a famous Yorkshire brewery but I often overpitched I now realize and did not understand the importance of temp control.
On route is a pack of the mentioned Omega Hornidal which I'll compare with an Espe Hornidal I got last week in side by side brews, splitting a 4-5 gall batch, If I end up with something drinkable too I'll count that as a bonus for now. I suppose I'll narrow down to just a couple of favourites and keep them though as the fridge can only cope with so much!

 

[AdeDunn]

Let me know how you get on with the Omega Hornidal. I'm very very tempted to try it, but bit concerned by the flavour description the Kveik registry, the bit about mushroom.... lmao That's just not a flavour I want in my beer in all honesty. The Omega description sounds delicious though.

 

[entertheflagon]

Well, there are mushrooms and there are mushrooms. The smell of fresh Cantrell, say, ( like fresh carrots to my nose) might be tempting.
I'll top crop to keep the yeast so there will be plenty should you be interested.
I also plan a proper brew with the Voss, first attempt was really to propagate the yeast.
If you were to do things again using that, how would you deal with a robust, malty pale type do you think?
I'm open to suggestions, just picked up a sack of Golden promise and have some pilsner that needs using, I thought 50/50? but would like the ' orange' notes to show and have no idea of hops.
What would you suggest?

 

[entertheflagon]

Perhaps that should've read ' Chanterell' or ' kanterell' in Norwegian or ' Pfifferlinge ' if you picked them in an Austrian wood?
I'm guessing its's a ' creamy' sort of note they mean.

 

[AdeDunn]

The golden I mad with Voss was a bit meh to be honest, I used Jester, and it was great for 3 weeks, then fell off a cliff... My wife still likes it, but I really can't drink it now.

It's early days (not even bottled it yet), but now I'd try something similar to this Paw On Yer Neck. I tried to go for a low quantity of hops with the Jester one, to try to give the yeast room to shine, and it didn't work out at all. I find it difficult to be honest, as the more I try to "bring out" or complement the orange, the more I'd actually end up just putting things in that'll add an orange flavour, making it more difficult to spot what comes from the yeast... My first Voss brew for example, I made a chocolate orange porter, with Mandarina Bavaria hops and orange zest...… Served in the right shaped glass, it has plenty of orange in it... (bog standard pint glasses the chocolate buries the orange....), but that probably all game from those hops and the zest, oh and did I mention that I bittered with Admiral? lmao But yeah, I'd go for that grain bill, switch the hops with Citra and Mandarina Bavaria with whatever your preferred bittering hop is (I say that, as I personally HATE Magnum, but know that for a lot of people it's their go to.)… If I really really wanted to taste the yeast though? I'd brew a Belgian With with it, rather than a pale. It's the one style that I'm confident won't fall off a cliff without a decent amount of hops in it. I'd still use Mandarina Bavaria though, but in similar quantities to how you'd usually use Saaz in a normal Wit (as in IBUs, not literally quantity), as I know from experience how nice a hop that is in a Wit.

I think some of the other chaps on here though had far more success getting the orange notes in paler ales than I have so far. I suspect that I don't keep it warm enough during fermentation to get the full effect, or the 3 day turn around. I just like it as a really easy to use yeast. lol

 

[entertheflagon]

Well thanks for that, I'll study it, I came up with this http://brewgr.com/recipe/41315/original-sigmund-gjernes-norwegian-farmhouse-ale-recipe but don't trust the Juniper bush I've got in the garden to be Juniperus Comunis I think it probably is and maybe I could chance it but I need to sleep on that a bit more!

When I last brewed 10 years ago all these new hops weren't about so I'm lost with them and Pales and Stout were my aims. so maybe I'll go with Saaz or Goldings, need to look more into that.
I don't want a 'hop dominated' brew, I want to get to grips with what the yest does and edge towards the ' farmhouse' , rustic beers the yeast was made for. Also It'd be a shame to bastardize a Norwegian heritage too much I feel.
Something like a Belgian would be only about 700 miles away anyway?
I'll mull over the hop thing tonight.
Thanks again.

 

[AdeDunn]

If by hop dominated, you mean in the style of US style IPAs, not a fan of that myself to be honest. I mostly brew porters and golden ales, with a Saison here and there, maybe a strong ale type thingy every now and then. I dabbled with IPAs, but I end up having to leave them a while so that the hops fade.... I like hop flavour in my beer, rather than a bit of beer flavour in my hop juice, if you know what I mean. The problem with the Jester golden ale was the flavour left after the hops faded (which happened incredibly quickly) just wasn't a nice one.... Sort of watery and grainy (not malty grainy, raw grainy). Second time I've made a brew with Jester for it to turn out bad, I'm starting to thing I may not be a fan of Jester hops... They're a UK hop by the way, just a recent one. Shame really, as Endeavour (another newish UK hop variety) is lovely, makes a gorgeous golden ale or bitter. I'd actually describe Endeavour as sort of super EKG in my experience. EKG, with added citrus.

That's got me thinking actually. A darker ale hopped with Endeavour and Fuggles, and fermented with Voss...… Something akin to a mild/brown ale sort of thing....

 

[entertheflagon]

Sounds like those Jester hops have had the laugh on you?
I'll have to dump most if not all of the hops I've found in my freezer as being too old though I've heard ' old' hops would likely be the thing for Kveik beers when they were used.
I found some Pilgrim and Magnum I was given from a 2014 crop, vac packed, don't know them but they might work?
If not then I'll find some Fuggles/ goldings/ Halletour, or something else I've used in the past.

 

[AdeDunn]

Yeah, last time I used them I used quite a lot, and it was a total onion bomb....

The Belma I used in my golden ale were a bit past their use by to be honest. I had 2 packs though, and 1 pack were still sealed up in the freezer, so I binned the open ones, and as I was using them for flavour and aroma, not bittering, used the sealed ones one last time, binned the ones remaining at the end of the brew. I wouldn't have relied on them for bittering though, they were 2015 harvest, so I just wouldn't have been confident in the alpha acids from them.

I've used Pilgrim for bittering a few times, it's not too bad a one, old crop that though for sure, maybe test them in a hop tea? Magnum I had were 2015, used them twice, first time I ended up with beer that tasted like petrol, second time was the one that ended up tasting like onions, with a nice background of copper pennies... They went in the bin. lol

Used EKG for bittering many a time, one of my favourite UK hops, love them. Fuggles I prefer when used later in the boil, or even at flame out. I found them too earthy when used for bittering, but they give a nice woody aroma used late. That's my personal tastes though. Hallertauer I've mainly used mittelfruh, both times in a Patersbier with Saaz, still not sure about them or Saaz to be honest. Not a fan of floral flavours. I should think they'd give you something very German/Belgian. I've got a draw in the freezer full of hops, so I've actually made a database to keep track... lol It's making brew planning much easier than before....

 

[entertheflagon]

Hop nightmares!
I'll try them in a tea first then, didn't think of that. I've been led to believe the freezer has a negative effect on hops and in vac packs they are better not in a freezer, that they keep better longer just under vacuum.
Past advice was keep in freezer, now that the oils are damaged by freezing and that I ought to bin all mine.
Might that have influenced your Magnum thing?

 

[entertheflagon]

Maybe there is a hop thread I ought to be looking through.

 

[stz]

Hop degradation is the same as with anything. Heat, moisture, oxygen, light, physically breaking them up and so on. If they are in sealed bags and an inert atmosphere keep them in the fridge or better freezer. It looks like everybody bitters with magnum because it is a high alpha, reasonably priced, low aroma/clean bittering hop which stores well and as a result it is attractive to commercial brewers. Whenever I open a fresh pack I get a big hit of tangerine orange and I redundantly remark "this'd be nice as an aroma hop!" (it isn't, it needs to be boiled for at least 20m). For most recipes however there is nothing special about magnum and we'll sub it out for more economical bittering hops depending on the market conditions. I'd say it isn't much cop for a home brewer who might want 6g in a batch and as such have it kicking around forever. In fact with any decently high alpha 'rock star' hop (citra, mosaic, centennial, simcoe, el dorado, vic secret, galaxy) you might find you need so little to bitter with anyway that it is better to just use a few grams of that from later in the boil and save buying, opening and then having it kick around so long all your brews suffer for the next 3 years while you use it up.

There are times when I want specific hops because you need them, but there are times when a harvest fails you, prices shoot up and/or the profile changes and as such blending, the art of making the best with the ingredients available to you becomes part of the skill of brewing. Having an open mind and holistic approach to hopping where you take advantage of a glut of something is part of the charm of 'rustic farmhouse brewing' for me and I like to imagine fits in with the ethos of farmhouse brewing who'd have not sweated too fine details. Like if I want a 'noble' aroma hop, there are so many to choose from I might as well choose by price, year and intended purpose because they'll all be sort of alright, with the highest price and freshest harvest reserved for the aroma addition and the aged mash hops for <5IBU's rightfully for whatever is cheap and not known to be awful.

 

[entertheflagon]

Hop degradation is the same as with anything. Heat, moisture, oxygen, light, physically breaking them up and so on. If they are in sealed bags and an inert atmosphere keep them in the fridge or better freezer. It looks like everybody bitters with magnum because it is a high alpha, reasonably priced, low aroma/clean bittering hop which stores well and as a result it is attractive to commercial brewers. Whenever I open a fresh pack I get a big hit of tangerine orange and I redundantly remark "this'd be nice as an aroma hop!" (it isn't, it needs to be boiled for at least 20m). For most recipes however there is nothing special about magnum and we'll sub it out for more economical bittering hops depending on the market conditions. I'd say it isn't much cop for a home brewer who might want 6g in a batch and as such have it kicking around forever. In fact with any decently high alpha 'rock star' hop (citra, mosaic, centennial, simcoe, el dorado, vic secret, galaxy) you might find you need so little to bitter with anyway that it is better to just use a few grams of that from later in the boil and save buying, opening and then having it kick around so long all your brews suffer for the next 3 years while you use it up.

There are times when I want specific hops because you need them, but there are times when a harvest fails you, prices shoot up and/or the profile changes and as such blending, the art of making the best with the ingredients available to you becomes part of the skill of brewing. Having an open mind and holistic approach to hopping where you take advantage of a glut of something is part of the charm of 'rustic farmhouse brewing' for me and I like to imagine fits in with the ethos of farmhouse brewing who'd have not sweated too fine details. Like if I want a 'noble' aroma hop, there are so many to choose from I might as well choose by price, year and intended purpose because they'll all be sort of alright, with the highest price and freshest harvest reserved for the aroma addition and the aged mash hops for <5IBU's rightfully for whatever is cheap and not known to be awful.

Many thanks for that reply, I'll pay it good heed.
I Know the ' rustic farmhouse' would've used what grew up fence poles, hedges or over the barn in Scandinavia most likely.
There was a time when taxes had to be paid in part with hops and I doubt quality control came into it much.
For myself, I'll keep it simple then, stay away from the ' rock stars' and scavenge from what unopened packs I have in the freezer if usable or go for Goldings/Fuggles.
I don't want overcomplicated , I just want drinkable!

 

[BeerCat]

One of the best beers i make with Voss has to be a no boil hoppy wheat. Brewed variations of this and always enjoy it. For hops so far i have used citra, amarillo, centennial and el dorado.

soft water 50ppm of calcium chloride (reverse osmosis).
22l batch
2.3kg pale or pilsner
2.3kg malted wheat

20g of magnum boiled in 1.5l of water for 20m.
Add this to all the runnings and hold at 75c for 20m.
Ferment at 37c for three days. Drop the temp to around 14c, dry hop. Cold crash a few days later, keg and force carb.
Dry hop the keg as well if you feel like it.

 

[entertheflagon]

One of the best beers i make with Voss has to be a no boil hoppy wheat. Brewed variations of this and always enjoy it. For hops so far i have used citra, amarillo, centennial and el dorado.

soft water 50ppm of calcium chloride (reverse osmosis).
22l batch
2.3kg pale or pilsner
2.3kg malted wheat

20g of magnum boiled in 1.5l of water for 20m.
Add this to all the runnings and hold at 75c for 20m.
Ferment at 37c for three days. Drop the temp to around 14c, dry hop. Cold crash a few days later, keg and force carb.
Dry hop the keg as well if you feel like it.

Beer Cat, could you expand on the mashing times, temp etc?

 

[AdeDunn]

I usually have a decent stock of hops in the freezer, so usually I tend to either bitter with a hop I'm using anyway where it's dual purpose, or I'll pick out a complementary high alpha hop that I have in stock. My chocolate orange porter for example, I was going for orange flavours (orange zest, Mandarina Bavaria hops late in the boil), so I bittered with Admiral which I have in the freezer too. Only ever bought Mangum to be honest as it was been sold off cheap, I suspect I found out why.... lol

As I mentioned, I now keep a database with a list of the hops in the freezer in it (21 varieties in there at the moment apparently... Ever likely my wife is getting annoyed with me filling a draw... lol). So when I am working on planning a brew and designing the recipe, I'll check this, check hop descriptions online, and work out what should work together from my stocks. Sometimes I top up stocks with something I don't have and want (eg. I bought a packet of Citra recently, as wanted to do a few brews with this in them, bought some Northdown as wanted to do a couple of Fuller's brews and already have the other hops I need....).

I've been able to do the same with the Kveik strains now too. Want orangey notes or very clean? Voss. Tropical fruity flavours? Hothead/Stranda. Then hops to complement. Grain bill that works with that and to suit the beer we fancy... Then every now and then, a properly planned brew (like the planned London Pride clone that I'll be brewing at some point) that doesn't use Kveik. So basically my "house beer" is some random recipe I come up with myself, either a porter or a golden ale (depending on whether I've brewed more of the one than the other of late), with some hops we like, fermented with a suitable Kveik strain. If a recipe turns out particularly good, it goes into the back of my brewing folder (and stays in my software too) and will get brewed again at some point, or I might try the same grist but with different hops for example, again with Kveik, and see what I get.

For me, Kveik isn't about just copying what's already been done, I don't do "tradition". lol Seems to me that nor was farmhouse brewing in any country really. Besides, I tried been a brewer who follows existing recipes, just kept been disappointed to be honest.

 

[BeerCat]

Beer Cat, could you expand on the mashing times, temp etc?

I have been mashing at 65c for an hour and mashing out at 75c for 10 minutes. Ferment at 37c for 72 hours ( or less depending on airlock) then drop the temps to around 14c for a dry hop. Then i cold crash overnight , keg and drink.

If your asking about no boil beer once i have collected all your wort i heat it all up to 75c for 20 minutes to pasteurise. Steep the hops during this time and or add boiled hops if you want more IBU's. Then it goes into a no chill cube.

Hope thats of some help. Feel free to ask away if you have any questions.

 

[Redgrave_3]

I have been mashing at 65c for an hour and mashing out at 75c for 10 minutes. Ferment at 37c for 72 hours ( or less depending on airlock) then drop the temps to around 14c for a dry hop. Then i cold crash overnight , keg and drink.

If your asking about no boil beer once i have collected all your wort i heat it all up to 75c for 20 minutes to pasteurise. Steep the hops during this time and or add boiled hops if you want more IBU's. Then it goes into a no chill cube.

Hope thats of some help. Feel free to ask away if you have any questions.

Hey @BeerCat this looks really good. For the quantities you mention in your first post (for 22l) how much strike water do you add initially and how much to sparge (batch for me) with? I guess you don’t lose any at 75c so is it 22l total.

Also (newb alert) this probably isn’t something you can answer confidently without more info but I have v. hard water so should I not bother treating it for this, or go 50/50 tap and ashbeck?

Thx

 

[entertheflagon]

I have been mashing at 65c for an hour and mashing out at 75c for 10 minutes. Ferment at 37c for 72 hours ( or less depending on airlock) then drop the temps to around 14c for a dry hop. Then i cold crash overnight , keg and drink.

If your asking about no boil beer once i have collected all your wort i heat it all up to 75c for 20 minutes to pasteurise. Steep the hops during this time and or add boiled hops if you want more IBU's. Then it goes into a no chill cube.

Hope thats of some help. Feel free to ask away if you have any questions.

Yes, the no boil idea. So, a simple infusion mash then.
I was not sure with the Pilsner and Wheat if you got up to complicated steps and rests etc,.
I 've found that it's not that simple to ferment around 40 deg, I did a couple of Voss brews by moving them about the top of my Aga on wooden blocks and it just about held at 37-40.
But I was fortunate with weather.
I'm looking to stick a PID control on a 10 Gall Burco I picked up for 15 quid and use variant on Dave Lines' ' floating mash tun' idea if you are familiar with it.
The plan, heat strike water in the boiler ( I have a spring in the garden, water is good and soft but mentally unknown!), then mash in and put mash bucket to ' float' in boiler set to 60 whatever. I used to mash that way and it kept the temp solid.
Then take out bucket and turn up heat for sparge as mash is drained, then sparge into fermenter after cooling to then ferment at , say 38 in the burco ' bain-marie' fo the 3 days or so.
A decoction could do the 75 mash out as the burco heated to 75.
I think it sound quite elegant for a no boil attempt with Voss ( it could also do a boil but I'd rather boil with a gas burner if I needed to).
Hot liquor tun, mash heater and temp controlled fermenter all in one?

 

[entertheflagon]

Yes, the no boil idea. So, a simple infusion mash then.
I was not sure with the Pilsner and Wheat if you got up to complicated steps and rests etc,.
I 've found that it's not that simple to ferment around 40 deg, I did a couple of Voss brews by moving them about the top of my Aga on wooden blocks and it just about held at 37-40.
But I was fortunate with weather.
I'm looking to stick a PID control on a 10 Gall Burco I picked up for 15 quid and use variant on Dave Lines' ' floating mash tun' idea if you are familiar with it.
The plan, heat strike water in the boiler ( I have a spring in the garden, water is good and soft but mentally unknown!), then mash in and put mash bucket to ' float' in boiler set to 60 whatever. I used to mash that way and it kept the temp solid.
Then take out bucket and turn up heat for sparge as mash is drained, then sparge into fermenter after cooling to then ferment at , say 38 in the burco ' bain-marie' fo the 3 days or so.
A decoction could do the 75 mash out as the burco heated to 75.
I think it sound quite elegant for a no boil attempt with Voss ( it could also do a boil but I'd rather boil with a gas burner if I needed to).
Hot liquor tun, mash heater and temp controlled fermenter all in one?

' mentally' was autocorrected , should've been ' minerally' !