CML Kristalweizen brewed at 39°c / 102f vs CML Voss Kveik

[Drunkula]

I made an elderflower wheat and did a three way split

1. Voss @ 39c
2. CML Kristalweizen @ 39c
2. Voss @ room temp

Just tasted the first 2 as they're ready for priming and bottling. The voss has that citrus tartness that thankfully levelled off with first two batches I did with it. Just like the others it has lost its 'beeryness' and it's almost like it wasn't brewed from malt because it's like some soft drink.

The Kristalweizen I like a lot more. There are no off flavours and it tastes more like what it should be - beer. The Kristalweizen also brewed out faster, I looked at 36 hours and it was done and had flocced out considerably. The Voss did have a tiny pitch rate, though.

Both of them had lost a lot of the elderflower and the cascade I put in late I couldn't really pick up. The room temp is almost done but I can still smell elderflower from the airlock. So if you wanted to Americanise it maybe add a hop tea or dry hop.

But anyway - at this stage if I was given the Kristalweizen and the Voss and was told the magic powers that kveik yeasts have it's not the Voss I would pick - I would have said that's the one with bad flavours from hot brewing - I wouldn't now because of the previous beers I know the orange juicy nature.

The Skinny : based on the super fast conditioning I've had with the Kristalweizen before I think you could easily do a 4 day grain to glass that's bottle conditioned and would be a damned fine wheat beer. Actually there doesn't seem to be much, if any, banana**. I'll see how that develops and update. I'll also update on the room temp.

I think I'm not going to do any more 39c Voss and will experiment with lower temps. At 39c you could throw away over half of the malt and use sugar and I think you'd end up with almost the same thing.

The Kristalweizen is definitely having another shout, and I'll be trying the CML Belgian, M36 Liberty Bell, M44 West Coast and S-33 at the same temps. I've just got to think of the recipe for a split batch and I'm not going to do any late hopping. I'll either cool and dry hop or do a tea.

** Jamil Zainisheff in that book with loads of recipes says brewing at 17c is how you get plenty banana. I will try that with the KW.

 

[cushyno]

Super experiment. Some crazy results you've got there too.

Last time I used the CML Krystallweizen I was seriously underwhelmed. Not surprising with full pitching rate at 20°C. I might give it another go based on this.

What about trying an underpitch of Krystallweizen if it doesn't give esters at 39°C, say 50% underpitch? When I've underpitched Wyeast 3068 at 21°C it's a banana bomb.

Ha, ha, can't wait to hear what the M36 does when you raise the temperature, that beard can kick out some esters. I bet it gives you plenty fusels.

 

[matt76]

That's a really interesting experiment @Drunkula

It reminds me of something I read on Brulosophy with (I think) W-34/70 where they kept pushing the fermentation temperature up to see how high they could go.

Did you just make a regular 20L(?) batch and split it, or did you go even smaller?

I've been experimenting recently with co-pitching wine yeast (without success - yet!) and I'm keen to experiment more but all grain is quite a bit time investment for something that could turn out undrinkable. Maybe extract is the way forward, for me at least...

 

[strange-steve]

This is how I see Drunkula creating his recipes:

 

[Gerryjo]

 

[Drunkula]

What about trying an underpitch of Krystallweizen if it doesn't give esters at 39°C, say 50% underpitch?

It's a possible. I could do underpitch +/vs temperatures.

Did you just make a regular 20L(?) batch and split it, or did you go even smaller?

Big ole full batch with 15 litres in the main fermenter with Voss @ 39
A 3 litre Smirnoff bottle with the Kristalweizen which takes a typical bung and bubbler
A gallon demijohn for the room temp.

I thought the Kristalweizen at 39c was going to be rank so that's why only 3 litres - If I know what I know now it would be the Voss at 39c in the little bottle. It's ok but the others seem better.

I thought the elderflower wheat would be good enough to keg but future stuff I want to do I need more small batch containment facilities as I'm running out of bottles. I'm being held back by the limits of my laboratory.

 

[Hanglow]

If you want more banana, having a glucose rich wort helps. You could use a Herrmann style mash if all grain, or if a 4 hour long mash doesn't seem like the best idea, have about 8 gravity points of your fermentables as glucose and add it at the end of your boil.

 

[JonBrew]

This is cool. So, apologies if I've misunderstood, did you pitch a full packet of the CML Krystalweizen into 3L or wort, or did you target a 'normal' pitching rate?

If it was the former it might explain why you got away with fermenting at such a high temp?

 

[Drunkula]

did you pitch a full packet of the CML Krystalweizen into 3L or wort, or did you target a 'normal' pitching rate?

Tiny pitch, didn't measure but about a 20th of a pack.

 

[JonBrew]

Tiny pitch, didn't measure but about a 20th of a pack.

Wow! That's crazy. I thought it would have been a banana bomb a best at that kind of temp.

 

[Drunkula]

Bottled these today, and I should have done it earlier, really, as I think the 39c voss might be a bit oxidised - not sure.

BUT! The 39c Kristalweizen tastes fekkkin gorgeous. When there wasn't enough to fill a bottle I had a swig of it and the priming sugar sweetness had really popped the elderflower back into life. No off brewing flavours - none. Anyone else doing a kveik and you've got some KW then have a little dabble at a side experiment. I only did 2.5 litres.

I'll probably try it in 6 or so days as wheats tend to condition fast.

I am really excited about this as I'm pretty meh about the actual voss at that temp. The room temperature one is fine, though.

 

[cushyno]

I took a punt on your recommendation. Ran a Dunkelweizen with the Kristalweizen at 24degC, hoping to get it fermented quick. I know it's nowhere near the 39degC of your experiment but it was good to know from your findings that the KW would go clean up to high temps.

Due to bottle sometime this week.
Cheers!

 

[Drunkula]

Ok.... it's 4 days in and I couldn't resist opening one of the CML Kristalweizens done at 39c.

And. It's. Absolutely. Bloody. Horrrible. -y fantastic.

I'm genuinely not kidding. There's the slight banana ester that I've had in this yeast before and a very slight bubblegum. None of the esters are huge and if I hadn't trained myself to taste them I'd just think - yeah, that is nice, stop gawping and go and get me another one now. Chop chop, off you go, quick sticks.

The grain is there and it feels almost sticky like a pudding and.... and it's good.

If this wasn't the first pint of the night and I was a bit more wayheyyy I'd go and open another, but there are only 4 left because I did a super small batch as I thought it would be rank.

With wheats I've had before they've never really got better after the first 6 days and I really can't see this getting any better, and it doesn't need to. It is fekkin lush.

I'll update of course, but I can't see any way that the Voss at 39c is going to get anywhere close to this one. The room temperature one might. Oh - the room temp one had a recognisably nice elderflower flavour and this doesn't. It's all been blown out the airlock like a bad Belter (get that ref' do you?).

I've finished it now and I'm sniffing in the glass and it it so bloody tempting to go and get just one more. But I'm not. Seriously. Nope.

 

[Clint]

I've used the CML K in an American wheat and it was good....lemon candy floss...

 

[matt76]

Ok.... it's 4 days in and I couldn't resist opening one of the CML Kristalweizens done at 39c.

And. It's. Absolutely. Bloody. Horrrible. -y fantastic.

I'm genuinely not kidding. There's the slight banana ester that I've had in this yeast before and a very slight bubblegum. None of the esters are huge and if I hadn't trained myself to taste them I'd just think - yeah, that is nice, stop gawping and go and get me another one now. Chop chop, off you go, quick sticks.

The grain is there and it feels almost sticky like a pudding and.... and it's good.

If this wasn't the first pint of the night and I was a bit more wayheyyy I'd go and open another, but there are only 4 left because I did a super small batch as I thought it would be rank.

With wheats I've had before they've never really got better after the first 6 days and I really can't see this getting any better, and it doesn't need to. It is fekkin lush.

I'll update of course, but I can't see any way that the Voss at 39c is going to get anywhere close to this one. The room temperature one might. Oh - the room temp one had a recognisably nice elderflower flavour and this doesn't. It's all been blown out the airlock like a bad Belter (get that ref' do you?).

I've finished it now and I'm sniffing in the glass and it it so bloody tempting to go and get just one more. But I'm not. Seriously. Nope.

What style of beer is this @Drunkula ? You said in your OP Elderflower Wheat, so if I think Belgian Witbier am I in the right ballpark, or is it more like a German Weizen?

Can you see this yeast working well in other styles, e.g. more hoppy? It's really intriguing that you say it's so much better than the Kweik...

 

[Drunkula]

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
2.200 kg​	BEST Wheat Malt (BESTMALZ) (4.8 EBC)​	Grain​	1​	50.0 %​	1.43 L​
2.200 kg​	Minch Pale Ale (Hook Head) (5.0 EBC)​	Grain​	2​	50.0 %​	1.43 L​
8.3 g​	Columbus 2018 15.4% [15.40 %] - Boil 30.0 min​	Hop​	3​	11.7 IBUs​	-​
5.0 g​	Simcoe 11% [11.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min​	Hop​	4​	5.0 IBUs​	-​
92.00 Items​	Elderflowers (Boil 15.0 mins)​	Flavor​	5​	-​	-​
25.0 g​	Cascade 2018 7.3% [7.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min​	Hop​	6​	7.8 IBUs​	-​
0.1 pkg​	CML Voss Kveik (CML #No. 1 Kveik Ale Yeast)​	Yeast​	8​	-​	-​

That's for the 23 litres that got split into 3. As simple as can be, really. There are hops there but aroma wise in the 39c batch - nope. I'd shift that cascade and do a dry hop with it or something. When I test the room temp version I'll see how well that held onto it. The elder really slid back into the shadows again when the sugar got used up, as I've said, on bottling day the sugar made it appear again.

I've used the Kristalweizen 9 times at anything from 17.5c to 24c and this is as good or better than any of the ones before.

I'm not sure as it's only been done once but for hoppy beers I'm guessing you'd have to move the aroma stage to a dry hop or hop tea clost to bottling if you wanted it super fast.

When I've run a Voss test at somewhere from 25 to 30 I'll see if that leaves any malty character. I'll do another yeast selection box at 35c and above before that. I've got a beer with CML Hell in at the moment so that's got the brew freezer occupied for a while. It smelled lovely in there during the elderflower beer - smells like the Devil's breakfast in there right now.

 

[Edison]

Very interesting! I’m brewing a raspberry wheat tomorrow using CML K yeast, just figuring out what to go for with fermentation temperature. I’ve gone low with IBU and no aroma hops to try and let the fruit shine. Yellow full body water profile.

https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/3130362/41-raspberry-wheat
Thinking maybe 22c now..? Maybe higher..?

 

[Drunkula]

Thinking maybe 22c now..? Maybe higher..?

Go as high as you want. I've brewed at least 9 times with the yeast and the 39c is as good as any of them. I wondered if it would go ester crazy but it didn't. So it's just if you want to ferment fast, I suppose.

 

[Edison]

Excellent, looks like warmer is the way then! Did you rehydrate or just sprinkle? Was thinking of keeping it simple if this strain is so robust.
Couldn't find any info about ideal temperatures for fruit additions either, im guessing the point at which they're added has more of an impact.

 

[Drunkula]

Did you rehydrate or just sprinkle?

For the first time in years I didn't rehydrate. The brew day ended late and I was knackered so just sprinked in a bit. I would always rehydrate normally. At least it was close to a good rehydration temperature, though.