New member: James Read

[James Read.]

Hi,

I'm completely new to this. I haven't even bought my first brewing kit yet. I've ordered a grape press and some bottles from Amazon. I'm planning on brewing up some kosher wine. I understand that this can be done by just using the grapes juice and the grape skins. The grape skins have an enzyme which will ferment the grape juice so no need to add any (non kosher) yeast to get the process started. The main problem I have already run into is I have no idea where I can source the grapes from. I tried doing some google searches and only managed to find companies that are selling grape vines at quite high prices. I just want the grapes and want to get a decent price. Does anybody have any suggestions for a complete newcomer on how to source grapes?

 

[An Ankoù]

Why is the totally random collection of yeast and other microorganisms found on grape skins kosher, while a strain cultured from a single cell found on a grape skin not kosher?
You're either going to have get to know a friendly grower or you're going to have to grown your own. You can buy grapes in a supermarket or greengrocer when in season, but they'll be relatively expensive and possible treated to make them last a bit longer.
Remember, too, that natural winemaking is very seasonable- ie when the grapes are ripe. A bit like cider really!
What neck of the woods to you live in? Is it suitable for grapes?
Welcome to the forum.

Edit:
Rereading your post, skins don't contain an enzyme that will ferment the juice. Enzymes are not responsibe for fermentation. Only yeast can do that. The yeasts associated with grapes are wild yeasts which are present in the air and attach themselves to the skins.
Since you can buy Kosher wine in the supermarket, there must at least be some (if not all) yeasts that are considered kosher.

 

[Rwilts]

Welcome

 

[James Read.]

Perhaps I didn't word my initial post very well. It's not that yeast is not kosher in general. The problem comes if you want it to be kosher for Passover. This means the wine cannot contain any elements from forbidden grains (mainly wheat, barley, oats, rye or spelt).

I live in London. More specifically Stamford Hill. So I've got no chance at the moment of growing my own. I'm going to have to buy the grapes from somewhere. I ordered a bunch of grapes from Amazon. But I want to experiment with specific types of grapes. For starters I would like to experiment with the ubiquitous Cabernet Sauvignon. Where do wine breweries get their grapes from? I can't believe that the only way to get grapes is to buy the vines and grow your own. Surely, grape growers have an economic interest in selling their grapes?

EDIT

Here's the source I got the information on enzymes from. It says:

For naturally fermented wine no additional ingredients are added, as there are natural enzymes contained in the grape skins that effect the change. Natural yeast contained in the grape converts the sugar in the grape juice into alcohol and carbon dioxide gas. As the gas escapes, the juice bubbles violently (ferments).

 

[ChilledGecko]

Hi James and welcome from Canvey Island.
I'm assuming kosher wines will not have any additives(sulfates etc.) added during production, so perhaps source the bottom dregs from a bottle of kosher wine and use that as the yeast source for the ferment. There may still be live culture available.

ATB

Kevin

 

[An Ankoù]

Perhaps I didn't word my initial post very well. It's not that yeast is not kosher in general. The problem comes if you want it to be kosher for Passover. This means the wine cannot contain any elements from forbidden grains (mainly wheat, barley, oats, rye or spelt).

I live in London. More specifically Stamford Hill. So I've got no chance at the moment of growing my own. I'm going to have to buy the grapes from somewhere. I ordered a bunch of grapes from Amazon. But I want to experiment with specific types of grapes. For starters I would like to experiment with the ubiquitous Cabernet Sauvignon. Where do wine breweries get their grapes from? I can't believe that the only way to get grapes is to buy the vines and grow your own. Surely, grape growers have an economic interest in selling their grapes?

EDIT

Here's the source I got the information on enzymes from. It says:

Ok. I have seen wines that are kosher for Passover.

"Your source seems to think that yeast, itself is an enzyme. Unless I've misread it.

"Fermentation is the natural process that converts the grape juice into wine. For naturally fermented wine no additional ingredients are added, as there are natural enzymes contained in the grape skins that effect the change. Natural yeast contained in the grape converts the sugar in the grape juice into alcohol and carbon dioxide gas."

I won't pretend to properly understand the laws of Kashrut and even less how they apply to Passover, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested.
What I did understand is that it was not the grains themselves that are forbidden, but those that have been in contact with and benefited from levening due the the presence of chemetz, which I take to be yeast. So all breads, prepared for the Passover have to be unleavened in accordance with the account in Exodus. That doesn't apply to wine, though, as the grape isn't a grain.

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected.

 

[James Read.]

Ok. I have seen wines that are kosher for Passover.

"Your source seems to think that yeast, itself is an enzyme. Unless I've misread it.

"Fermentation is the natural process that converts the grape juice into wine. For naturally fermented wine no additional ingredients are added, as there are natural enzymes contained in the grape skins that effect the change. Natural yeast contained in the grape converts the sugar in the grape juice into alcohol and carbon dioxide gas."

I won't pretend to properly understand the laws of Kashrut and even less how they apply to Passover, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested.
What I did understand is that it was not the grains themselves that are forbidden, but those that have been in contact with and benefited from levening due the the presence of chemetz, which I take to be yeast. So all breads, prepared for the Passover have to be unleavened in accordance with the account in Exodus. That doesn't apply to wine, though, as the grape isn't a grain.

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected.

I won't pretend to fully understand the laws of Kashrus either. But from what I understand the Passover problem is as you rightly suggest the presence of chometz. This means that drinks like whisky and vodka are not kosher for Passover as they are brewed from grains. The wine itself, if I am understanding this correctly, would not be kosher for Passover if the yeast came from one of the five forbidden grains. I just found this source which says

Yeast made from wheat or barley based sweeteners is chometz, while corn based sweeteners make kitniyos yeast. Kosher for Passover yeast (used for wine and yeast extract) is usually made especially for Passover, utilizing only molasses and additives that are kosher for Passover.

 

[An Ankoù]

I won't pretend to fully understand the laws of Kashrus either. But from what I understand the Passover problem is as you rightly suggest the presence of chometz. This means that drinks like whisky and vodka are not kosher for Passover as they are brewed from grains. The wine itself, if I am understanding this correctly, would not be kosher for Passover if the yeast came from one of the five forbidden grains. I just found this source which says

I see. That makes sense. And, of course, any kind of beer would be out of the question.

 

[James Read.]

I see. That makes sense. And, of course, any kind of beer would be out of the question.

Yeah. See this page.

 

[An Ankoù]

Wouldn't you be better off just making wine from concentrates or kits which is not Kosher for Passover, but acceptable during the rest of the year. You could then develop your skills and technique without waiting for the grape harvest and buying expensive grapes. You could then make your preferred wine in September or October, when the grapes come in.

You need to buy some fermenting vessels, too. A plastic bucket with a lid for the first fermentation and then glass demijohns for when things settle down a bit.

 

[James Read.]

Wouldn't you be better off just making wine from concentrates or kits which is not Kosher for Passover, but acceptable during the rest of the year. You could then develop your skills and technique without waiting for the grape harvest and buying expensive grapes. You could then make your preferred wine in September or October, when the grapes come in.

You need to buy some fermenting vessels, too. A plastic bucket with a lid for the first fermentation and then glass demijohns for when things settle down a bit.

I have considered this. But decided to jump straight into making wine kosher for Passover.

 

[An Ankoù]

I have considered this. But decided to jump straight into making wine kosher for Passover.

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[The Baron]

Welcome to the forum.
As regards sourcing wine grapes most vineyards will not let their good grapes go to market but to wine so chances are you will be buying 2nd grade grapes.
Ps this does not mean they will not make good wine, Good Luck

 

[James Read.]

Welcome to the forum.
As regards sourcing wine grapes most vineyards will not let their good grapes go to market but to wine so chances are you will be buying 2nd grade grapes.
Ps this does not mean they will not make good wine, Good Luck

Does that mean that the grapes available in supermarkets are better for wine making?

 

[The Baron]

I think the grapes in the supermarket are eating grapes and will make wine but not designed for the exact purpose of wine IMO

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I think this is going to work out very expensive as I have read a Kg of supermarket grapes will cost you £11.36 so at least £11.36 a bottle.

It is also commonly agreed that one needs 1.2kg of grapes to make a bottle of wine.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Have a look at this - Supermarket Juice Wine How To guide and Recipes.

 

[James Read.]

UPDATE:

I just squeezed about 8 kilos of grapes from Amazon (South African grapes). I only got about three litres of juice from them with my brand new fruit press. Is this normal? It seems like a small amount of juice to me.

 

[An Ankoù]

UPDATE:

I just squeezed about 8 kilos of grapes from Amazon (South African grapes). I only got about three litres of juice from them with my brand new fruit press. Is this normal? It seems like a small amount of juice to me.

I don't know as I've never weighed my grapes. Did you crush them first or did you put them in the press whole? They have to be crushed to break up the skins and the fruit.

 

[James Read.]

I put them in whole.