TWO Infected Brews, help!

[ssashton]

Hi,

I've done a number of brews with no problem, usually I think I'm pretty good at being clean. My last two have been infected though :'(

I think the first one became infected when it over-flowed the fermenter. After that happened I put a couple of tubes through the lid so it would over-flow down the tubes if it happened again. I can only guess the tubes were not completely sterile. The fermentation stopped short and I had noticed an increasingly cider-like smell.

This time I made extra effort to clean and steriliser the fermenter bucket but I'm getting the same cider smell and horrible bitter taste!

I cleaned the fermenter bucket with normal washing liquid, rinsed, then soaked it in Sodium Percarbonate (Wilko brewing steriliser) for nearly 1 hour and washed it all around as much as possible. I also soaked the siphon in the same solution and made very sure it got all down inside the tube. I also soaked the chiller coil (copper pipe coil) in the solution, but anyway that will soon be dunked in 100C wort which one would hope will kill anything that might be there.

I cleaned the kettle and also rinsed it with sodium percarbonate, although not so fully as the fermenter. I do not really expect the infection comes from the kettle that spends an hour at 100C.

So.. I'm not really sure what to do from here. Is sodium percarbonate just not such a great steriliser? Do I need to use something else? Or are micro scratches in the plastic fermenter surface harbouring bacteria?

Any guesses about what the infection is, with a cider-like smell and very bitter, kind of plastic after taste?

I suppose I'll buy a new fermenter bucket, plastic spoon and siphon. My first brew sat in the keg too, so I guess that'll need to go!

 

[ssashton]

I foudn this interesting description of infections in beer: https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/
I think mine might be Butyric acid taste.

 

[LeeH]

2 words. Star San.

 

[Brew_DD2]

You say you rinsed with Sodium Percarbonate. Presumably you rinsed with fresh water after this step..?

 

[Sadfield]

Sounds like phenolics and acetaldehyde produced by a wild yeast.

Either way, it's the old chestnut of cleaning and sanitising, which will draw suggestions of a range of methods and products. On its own Sodium Percarbonate isn't very good at sanitising, it's a very good at cleaning though.

My preference is to clean with sodium Percarbonate and sanitise with Star San.

 

[An Ankoù]

Sounds like you're doing everything right with the cleaning. I'd be reluctant to start throwing away fermenters and kegs although the rubber fittings, washers and grommets might be ready for a change. What you describe doesn't sound like Butyric acid but Acetaldehyde. Check out acetaldehyde in your list of 18 off flavours and google "cider smells in beer".
I would always clean with a solution of ordinary bleach to kill everything dead. Then rinse with water and after with sodium metabisulphite solution (which is itself a sanitiser) to remove every last trace of chlorine from the bleach.
Then look at whether you did anything differently with your last two brews compared with previous brews: a different yeast, big temperature change, different water, unfamiliar hops, etc, etc.
Good luck. Don't throw away your stuff.
Get a cheap kit if necessary- not for the pleasure of drinking it, but just to test your set up.

 

[Sadfield]

Common Disinfectants

Acid-anionic surfactants (Star San):Combinations of acid, usually phosphoric acid, with surface-active agents (surfactants). These disinfectants are stable, odorless, relatively nontoxic, and available in both low-and high-foaming formulas. They are effective at removing and controlling mineral films on stainless while disinfecting, but are effective only below pH 2.5.

Chlorine dioxide: This disinfectant works by oxidizing microorganisms. An excellent low-foam sanitizer, it offers a wide spectrum of activity (operates within a large pH range). It can possess good residual effects; that is, any remaining unreacted chlorine dioxide left in the water will continue to sanitize. Once activated, however, the sanitizing will cease when the gas is dissipated. Chlorine dioxide was formerly available only in gas form, but it is now available in liquid form as sodium chlorite. Sodium chlorite needs to be activated with an acid such as a citric or food-grade phosphoric. When the acid is added, the pH is lowered, which destabilizes the solution and turns it into a very aggressive disinfectant. Though a little more expensive, chlorine dioxide is probably the best disinfectant available in terms of activity, odor, and handling, and it creates no foam. One drawback, however, is that once it’s destablized it tends to break down quickly, though it breaks down into very harmless, environmentally friendly substances. This is not the type of disinfectant you can leave sitting around in a bucket all day long (you’ll be left with a bucket of water, baking soda, and salt).

lodophor: lodophor is an inexpensive, widely used sanitizer. It typically ranges from 1.6 to 3.5% iodine mixed with nonionic detergents in a phosphoric acid solution, Iodophor can be used as a no-rinse sanitizer at up to 25 ppm; when used at 50 ppm the method of sanitizing becomes chemical oxidation. It is noncorrosive, breaks down slowly, and is available in both low- and high-foaming formulas. It often has a mild odor and can affect beer flavor even in low concentrations. It will stain skin, clothing, and plastic equipment.

Peroxyacetic acid: This compound is based on peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. Peroxyacetic acid sterilizes by oxidizing microorganisms. Though the acid is low-foaming and offers a wide spectrum of activity, it is often expensive, foul smelling, dangerous, hard to use, and somewhat corrosive.

Quaternary ammonium compounds:These compounds sanitize by poisoning or rupturing the cell walls of microorganisms. The spectrum of activity they offer is limited by water hardness and pH (they operate best in a neutral pH environment). They are not widely used because they are dangerous, expensive, and they have a reputation for residue (though they do possess good residual sanitizing ability). Low foam.

Sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach): A low-cost sanitizer most effective in a weak or neutral pH range. It works by chemically oxidizing microorganisms. Though very inexpensive, it is not widely used in the brewing industry because of its odor and the availability of other less corrosive, less toxic, and more effective sanitizers such as iodophor. Low foam.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Brewery_Cleaning

 

[An Ankoù]

Sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach): A low-cost sanitizer most effective in a weak or neutral pH range. It works by chemically oxidizing microorganisms. Though very inexpensive, it is not widely used in the brewing industry because of its odor and the availability of other less corrosive, less toxic, and more effective sanitizers such as iodophor. Low foam.

Very thorough survey from Sadfield.
I should also add that while bleach is my preferred cleaner and sanitiser because it's cheap, easy to get hold of, also neutralises the smell of dog pisss, but that's another story, and most of all it works 100%. BUT don't leave your stainless steel stuff soaking in it for hours or days on end as it will corrode the more common stainless steels. SS Brewtech, for example, and many others use 304 stainless steel which is susceptible to eventual corrosion from chlorine compounds. I've never had a problem with my SS as half an hour soaking is more than enough to clean and sterilise. On the other hand, you can leave your plastic, rubber and glass bits in it without fear of harm.

 

[ssashton]

You say you rinsed with Sodium Percarbonate. Presumably you rinsed with fresh water after this step..?

Hmm.. you know I think the last two times I soaked the hop socks and grain bag in it, but didn't rinse. I actually thought sodium percarbonate was a non-rinse steriliser, although I do usually rinse everything.

EDIT: Oh yes, it says on the pot "shake off excess moisture, do not rinse".

 

[An Ankoù]

Hmm.. you know I think the last two times I soaked the hop socks and grain bag in it, but didn't rinse. I actually thought sodium percarbonate was a non-rinse steriliser, although I do usually rinse everything.

I have a cooker-top vegetable steamer, they're not expensive. I wet my hop sock, put a bit of water in the bottom pan and steam it for 5 minutes then lift off the perforated pan and run under cold water to make it handleable. Never had a problem with fresh tap water for rinsing. I do the same with my Erlenmeyer flasks before cropping yeast or growing cultures on.

 

[Sandimas]

Bleach worked for me when I had a persistent infection after none of the usual cleaners and sanitisers did.

These days I always add a kettle of boiled water down sides of the FV after sanitising and rinsing, just to be sure. Haven't had an infection since.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Hmm.. you know I think the last two times I soaked the hop socks and grain bag in it, but didn't rinse. I actually thought sodium percarbonate was a non-rinse steriliser, although I do usually rinse everything.

EDIT: Oh yes, it says on the pot "shake off excess moisture, do not rinse".

I would not use Sodium Percarbonate as a sanitiser. It's a great cleaner, but really you should rinse it off and use a true no-rinse sanitiser like Stansan or Iodophor. I have no idea why so many companies claim that their cleanser is no-rinse.

 

[LeeH]

Subscribe to Beer Smiths podcasts. Loads of interesting articles on there including Five Star themselves.

 

[ssashton]

Thanks guys. I feel a bit better about things now!

I'll start using Star San or similar as well as getting a new fermenter bucket (only £10). I also already wanted a better siphon. The keg I'll try to sterilise with bleach, then Star San.

..where do you buy Star San at a good price in the UK? Iodophor too, I can't really find it, keep getting MediGuard stuff.

Is there a specific bleach I should look for? I can't help wondering if toilet bleach has other stuff in it like foaming agent, thickener etc..

 

[ssashton]

Maybe this is iodophor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vanodine...520686?hash=item2acae34dee:g:rG8AAMXQBg5RsQQ2

 

[LeeH]

I would pass on the bleach, just clean properly an put an haLf an inch of SS in. Then shake.

It’s beer safe even if you leave excessive amounts in the FV.

Get a spray bottle and spray it down your tubes.

 

[dan125]

where do you buy Star San at a good price in the UK? Iodophor too, I can't really find it, keep getting MediGuard stuff.

Malt Miller have both - https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product-category/chemicals/equipment-chemicals-sterilising/

 

[An Ankoù]

Get the cheap, thin bleach. Unperfumed. I don't know why some are so reluctant to use such a reliable agent. We use it to ensure our babies' bottles and feeding stuff is sterile in Milton. I would never use any kind of so-called no rinse, I like to add my own chemicals to my beer! These are no more efficient, they're just convenient. At a price. 2 litres of thin bleach in Asda or Tesco is about 40p. Malt Miller et al are not going to turn a profit selling that, so they don't. Always check if a supplier sells "carbonation drops", if they do (and I suspect they all do) then you know that they're perfectly happy to supply the gullible as well as the more circumspect. They won't sell you a bag of granulated sugar for the same reason.
Iodophor releases Iodine into solution in much the same way as bleach releases Chlorine. Both Iodine and Chlorine clean and sterilise in the same way. Why make things difficult?

 

[foxbat]

There is no reason to introduce chlorine into a brewery with it's potentially fatal (to the brew) hazards when equally effective alternatives exist.

 

[An Ankoù]

There is no reason to introduce chlorine into a brewery with it's potentially fatal (to the brew) hazards when equally effective alternatives exist.

Like Iodine?
There is very good reason to introduce chlorine into the brewery and no sterilizer/cleanser/disinfectant is safe (to the brew) except perhaps steam. We're trying to kill everything- albeit bugs, in a situation where contamination is suspected. There should be no need to use disinfectants on a day-to-day basis anyway. Star San for example is NOT a disinfectant, but a sanitiser and it should not be relied upon when microbial contamination is suspected. Certainly not at the manufacturers recommended dilution.