TWO Infected Brews, help!

[An Ankoù]

Here's some stuff in support of humble bleach:
https://murphyandson.co.uk/store/brewery-hygiene/140-holchem-sodium-hypochlorite-25-kgliquidhz.html
https://distripark.eu/blog/sodium-hypochlorite-or-sodium-hydroxide-for-disinfection-at-the-brewery
http://homebrewtechniques.com/getting-started/home-brewers-guide-to-cleaning-and-sanitising/
A good rinse with a solution of sodium metabisulphite afterwards will remove all traces of chlorine which might otherwise contaminate the beer.

 

[Sadfield]

Starsan vs Bleach is an interesting debate, but given the longevity of a bottle of the former, and the cost of the later, it isn't much of an outlay to have both options on hand.

The ability of acid based sanitizers to also be used as cleaners, to remove inorganic mineral deposits that often bond with organic matter or harbour bacteria and yeast, is pretty useful.

IIRC Sodium Metabisulphite isn't a sanitiser, it releases Sulphur Dioxide which is an antiseptic, so inhibit bacterial and yeast growth rather than reducing contamination.

 

[ssashton]

Star San for example is NOT a disinfectant, but a sanitiser and it should not be relied upon when microbial contamination is suspected.

The ability of acid based sanitizers to a... to remove inorganic mineral deposits that often bond with organic matter or harbour bacteria and yeast, is pretty useful.

Two interesting points here! So forgive my lack of understanding but I presume a 'sanitiser' is a cleaning agent and removes bacteria like soap, rather than kills it? That certainly isn't the impression I get from the way people use it. I thought it was a bacteria killing agent.

Second point - I have pretty hard water here so it is possible small limescale deposits form and if they harbour bacteria then acid will certianly help.

Regarding sodium percarbinate, I can vouch for it doing a great job of freshening the dishwasher!!

 

[ssashton]

Any of you use Campden tablets in the actual wort, or just for rinsing the equipment?

 

[An Ankoù]

You started this thread by wondering why two of your brews had become infected and had to be thrown away. My response would be to go for the nuclear option and kill everything dead. In the absence of a convenient gamma radiation source, I would recommend bleach to kill followed by sodium metabisulphite to neutralise any remnants of chlorine from the bleach. Some of my fellow posters seem to think I'm recommending bleach be used all the time- not so; it's usually enough to suppress unwanted yeasts and bacteria sufficiently for your brewing yeast to have time to get the upper hand and see them off. Many of the proprietary "sanitisers" are up to this job. My own choice is a solution of sodium metabisulphite. It's probably not the best, it won't suppress acetobacter very well, for example. But it's what I'm used to and it works for me. Star San, percarbonate, those which release free oxygen are all good for this purpose.
By the way, a strong solution of household bleach does a marvelous job removing organic and inorganic material, but Sadfield is referring, I think, to what we call "beerstone" and that's the devil's own job to shift.

 

[Sadfield]

Two interesting points here! So forgive my lack of understanding but I presume a 'sanitiser' is a cleaning agent and removes bacteria like soap, rather than kills it? That certainly isn't the impression I get from the way people use it. I thought it was a bacteria killing agent.

They both kill microorganisms, the difference is legal terminology. To be labelled a disinfectant a product must kill every organism within 10 minutes contact time. To be labelled a sanitiser a product only needs to kill 99.9% of bacteria within 30 seconds. Sanitisers still kill a broad range of bacteria, fungi and viruses.

So, if you use Bleach for a quick swill around, it's a sanitiser. If you leave it for 10 minutes, it's a disinfectant.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Bleach for me as well or cheapo miltons from the pound shop, first job a good scrub with hot soapy water then a really good rinse then warm water bleach solution into the fv with airlock bung and anything else I am using lid on good swish round leave for half an hour another swish round rinse everything properly job done, never had a problem you can add white vinegar but only after you dilute the bleach solution unless of course you wish to gas yourself

 

[An Ankoù]

Any of you use Campden tablets in the actual wort, or just for rinsing the equipment?

You don't need Campden tablets in the wort. The wort has just been boiling and cooled so it is sterile. You've just aerated it before pitching the yeast and Campden tablets act as an antioxidant, which would tend to undo your aeration. Anything which militates against oxidation in your beer is good except right at the beginning when the yeast needs oxygen to multiply rapidly.
Wine-makers may use Campden tablets in the must to suppress wild yeasts on the fruit to give their chosen yeast a better chance of colonising the must.
You know that Campden tablets are just sodium or potassium metabisulphate pressed into a tablet.

 

[An Ankoù]

Second point - I have pretty hard water here so it is possible small limescale deposits form and if they harbour bacteria then acid will certianly help.

Depends on the acid. But it's always good to get rid of you limescale and beerstone for the reason you state. But, scraping away at these deposits will produce scratches in the surface of your vessel which will also harbour unwanted organisms. I tend to keep my plastic vessels sealed with a bit of metabisulphite solution in it to keep them sweet. But, in the long-term, this will corrode many metals and damage rubber grommets etc.

 

[An Ankoù]

They both kill microorganisms, the difference is legal terminology. To be labelled a disinfectant a product must kill every organism within 10 minutes contact time. To be labelled a sanitiser a product only needs to kill 99.9% of bacteria within 30 seconds. Sanitisers still kill a broad range of bacteria, fungi and viruses.

So, if you use Bleach for a quick swill around, it's a sanitiser. If you leave it for 10 minutes, it's a disinfectant.

Whose legal definition is this and for what purpose and which country? Just as a matter of interest.
But we're missing the point here which is: how can we help ssashton avoid another contaminated brew without telling him to replace anything but the smaller, perishable parts of his kit. Are we advising or confusing him?

 

[The Baron]

Whose legal definition is this and for what purpose and which country? Just as a matter of interest.
But we're missing the point here which is: how can we help ssashton avoid another contaminated brew without telling him to replace anything but the smaller, perishable parts of his kit. Are we advising or confusing him?

Whose legal definition is this and for what purpose and which country? Just as a matter of interest.
But we're missing the point here which is: how can we help ssashton avoid another contaminated brew without telling him to replace anything but the smaller, perishable parts of his kit. Are we advising or confusing him?

I think you are right AA when answering questions on this and any forum we all have different ways that work for ourselves and try to bring it to the party and start to make some posts a little confusing for newer brewers who have not the experience that some of us have. We also then go off track slightly sometimes too. I do think that most ways that have been put forward will work as I usually just clean or oxi clean if really dirty/stained and then starsan and it works for me but if I had had a infection I would use every weapon in my arsenal to do a deep clean and deep sanitisation. I hope the OP can read between the lines and put together a good routine that works for them from the advice put forward

 

[Sandimas]

You started this thread by wondering why two of your brews had become infected and had to be thrown away. My response would be to go for the nuclear option and kill everything dead. In the absence of a convenient gamma radiation source, I would recommend bleach to kill followed by sodium metabisulphite to neutralise any remnants of chlorine from the bleach. Some of my fellow posters seem to think I'm recommending bleach be used all the time- not so;

+1

That's why I recommended it earlier in the thread. It's the nuclear option to be used when the only other option is to throw all the kit away, not to be used regularly. I had 18 month of hell trying to get to the bottom of my infections, I nearly gave up brewing as I was getting so frustrated, so as a final option I bleached everything followed by some very good rinsing. The infection went and never came back.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Every other brew I do all my taps come off and sealing washers and get a good going over seals get replaced if need be, I am not ocd about it I just do it with anything I use after the boil

 

[ssashton]

I don't feel confused, I'm interested in all the options and how they actually work.

Today I bought some thin bleach. It was hard to find actually - I went to Wilko, Iceland, Nisa, Savers even Boots, but only found thick bleach. Finally gave up and drove to Asda and got the Smart Price thin bleach there.

I also got some Campden tablets to rise with afterwards for chlorine removal.

What concentration should I use to blitz my keg?

Honestly, the bleach doesn't smell strong to me. I'm sure after a rinse and drying (upside down) there will not be much Chlorine smell left.

Regarding putting Campden tablets in the wort, I was actually meaning to remove Chloramines that are in the tap water. Apparently, unlike Chlorine, Chloramines that are used in tap water these days do not break down with boiling. Though, I suppose that is only a problem if the yeast has trouble starting and I've never found that. Looking to fix a problem that doesn't exist, lol.

 

[An Ankoù]

Apologies. It didn't have to be thin, when I was in Blighty it was readily available and dead cheap. The important thing is that it's not perfumed.
1 vol bleach to 10 of water will be more than enough.
I see your point about the chloramine. Half a Campden to 5 gallons is, again, more than enough.
Not at all. The problem is not that it inhibits the yeast after the boil, but that it combines with phenolic compounds in the hops during the boil and produces something with the flavour of TCP. Not nice in your beer, and once there, the beer's only fit for chucking.

 

[Sadfield]

Whose legal definition is this and for what purpose and which country? Just as a matter of interest.
But we're missing the point here which is: how can we help ssashton avoid another contaminated brew without telling him to replace anything but the smaller, perishable parts of his kit. Are we advising or confusing him?

It was American information, which is probably relevant as most of the mentioned products (except Bleach) are American.

As I've stated previously. There is no real reason to limit oneself to one particular product. They all have their advantages and their performance is largely determined by contact time.

It's worth noting that the ability to kill every type of microorganism under the sun is largely irrelevant when our only concern are the ones that spoil beer.

 

[An Ankoù]

It was American information, which is probably relevant as most of the mentioned products (except Bleach) are American.

As I've stated previously. There is no real reason to limit oneself to one particular product. They all have their advantages and their performance is largely determined by contact time.

It's worth noting that the ability to kill every type of microorganism under the sun is largely irrelevant when our only concern are the ones that spoil beer.

Fair comment.

 

[ssashton]

Thanks for all the information chaps!

Is thin bleach just weaker, diluted thick bleach, or does thick bleach simply have added thickening agents?

Talking about chloramines and phenolic compounds.. I've no idea what TCP tastes like (but I know what TCT feels like :p) I wonder if this might be some of what I taste (although the cider smell really suggests bacteria) as our water here has recently had a stronger chlorine smell. I presume this is due to the very hot weather we are receiving and a need to keep it bacteria free. I think I can tell when they dose it sometimes from the smell.

 

[terrym]

Is thin bleach just weaker, diluted thick bleach, or does thick bleach simply have added thickening agents?

Talking about chloramines and phenolic compounds.. I've no idea what TCP tastes like (but I know what TCT feels like :p) I wonder if this might be some of what I taste (although the cider smell really suggests bacteria) as our water here has recently had a stronger chlorine smell. I presume this is due to the very hot weather we are receiving and a need to keep it bacteria free. I think I can tell when they dose it sometimes from the smell.

A typical thin bleach contains 1% w/w Sodium Hypochlorite and apparently nothing else, thick bleach about 4.5% w/w hypochlorite other stuff probably including a thickening agent to allow it to stick to surfaces it is treating rather than just run off. And thin bleach is widely available in most supermarkets e.g. Tesco 40p for 2 litres
If you have chlorine or chloramine in your mains water and intend to use it for brewing, you can either treat it overnight by adding quarter crushed campden tablet to 23 litres water which is more than enough time for the process to work (I occasionally use an old PB with a tap for this), or as many people do, use cheap bottled water. Apologies if this has already been covered on here.

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks for all the information chaps!

Is thin bleach just weaker, diluted thick bleach, or does thick bleach simply have added thickening agents?

Talking about chloramines and phenolic compounds.. I've no idea what TCP tastes like (but I know what TCT feels like :p) I wonder if this might be some of what I taste (although the cider smell really suggests bacteria) as our water here has recently had a stronger chlorine smell. I presume this is due to the very hot weather we are receiving and a need to keep it bacteria free. I think I can tell when they dose it sometimes from the smell.

terrym has answered your first question and I no longer have access to either thick or thin here in France so can't check the bottles. We have what appears to be a standardised product here.
TCP is an antiseptic and mouthwash which is (or used to be) readily available in the UK. It tastes-well antiseptic and while not unpleasant in a mouthwash, it's horrendous in your beer. Ever come across this?